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    #1

    Juncker SW68 Discussion

    Gents,

    I have been reviewing the state of play on our understanding of the SW68 markings and would like to see if there are any thoughts out there.

    Generally agreed upon:

    1) The SW68 is a good marking (of this I am 100% certain)
    2) The SW68 is the last marking used by Juncker (based on Flaks I can say this marking is only seen on the third and final pattern Flak badge)

    Questions I have:

    1) WHY did they change the mm?
    2) Could it have been because they were producing after the factory was bombed in 1944 and they added the 68 to mmeorialize the old address? This is romantic, but can we believe and dies survived and they continued post-44?
    3) Is there any other info out there on the 68 marking?

    Discuss.


    Thanks!
    Marc
    Tags: None
    #2
    Originally posted by Flak88 View Post
    1) WHY did they change the mm?
    2) Could it have been because they were producing after the factory was bombed in 1944 and they added the 68 to mmeorialize the old address? This is romantic, but can we believe and dies survived and they continued post-44?
    3) Is there any other info out there on the 68 marking?
    Marc
    There could be at least two theories about why they changed their MM
    -the die for the MM wore out
    -the MM die got destroyed (during bombing?)
    Personally I'd go with first one although second is believable to me as well.

    Juncker was producing after they got bombed out in '44 -the question is where. Their "after the war location" was SO36, the only uncertain thing is was that also the location for '44-'53 time frame.I don't think it was as I've never even heard about CEJ 3 reich products with SO36 stamp (which would make more sense than using SW one being in fact in SO). I also don't think they used SW68 location after a quick clean-up of debris as I came across a paper stating that the SW68 location was cleaned up of debris and is ready (for sale perhaps?) from 1953.Thats almost 2 years after they started cranking the new bundesverdienst crosses...
    I don't think they used SW68 to memorize the location and I don't really subscribe to "the dies got destroyed" theory either-perhaps some were but nowhere near all of them after all CEJ was a big manufacturer with lots and lots of different dies for nearly everything from miniatures and pinbacks to helmets. Whether the MM die falls in that category its up for belief I guess.
    The timing of new SW68 MM introduction was tried before but the bottom line is unless we know nearly exactly when they put it to use AND when they got bombed we will prolly never be able to tie those two together.

    The above applies to C.E. Juncker products in general and not just flak badges bearing the SW68 MM of course.
    cheers
    Matt

    Comment

      #3
      I want to talk about ALL SW68 marked Juncker - I am not just raising Flaks. But how do we KNOW they were producing between the date of the bombing (do we know the date) and May 8, 1945?
      Marc

      Comment

        #4
        Originally posted by Flak88 View Post
        But how do we KNOW they were producing between the date of the bombing (do we know the date) and May 8, 1945?
        Marc
        We do not KNOW. And its a bit of a stretch. Then again its even more of a stretch (at least for me) to believe that after they got bombed the manager showed up saying "screw it!" and left leaving everything behind.
        I came across a piece of paper that I should still have somewhere around saying that the general manager of the company relinquished his position on the 8th of May 1945. If that was really the case-and I have every reason to believe that its true-then the only reason that would happen is if the company was more or less operational-if it was a piece of demolished building with a few melted dies and presses then who would give a damn? Granted the property would be worth something but I believe they had different problems on the 8th of May.

        Another story in circulation is "the dies for this and that were used after the war for restrikes" . OK, fair enough if that is the case-where did the fakers get the original dies from? Did they dig them out from what used to be 13 Alte Jakobstrasse (again-bit of a stretch) or did they obtain them from CEJ some time after the war? I believe the later. Well, if thats the case -again they had to be doing something between late '44 (bombing-as universally accepted) and (at least) the end of the war to be in position to have the dies- no one would show up to pick up the tooling (including the dies), stick them in a locker to be used after the war was over (with the swasticas all over them) and simply wait it out.
        Then again- I believe C.E. produced a good looking flak badge so who knows .
        cheers
        Matt

        Comment

          #5
          There is no doubt the first pattern Flak is nice, but there is a lot of bubbling and the badges are rough in general. As you go through the various patterns the dies degraded and they never put the kind of care into the badge as they did with other war badges. The plating can also be way too thick and obscure details.

          Juncker Flaks are inconsistent, at best. Some are gorgeous, the majority are eh.

          Back to SW68 - where did you come across the address of their post-bombing setup? And does ANYONE know when the damn place was blown up?

          Marc

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Flak88 View Post
            Back to SW68 - where did you come across the address of their post-bombing setup? And does ANYONE know when the damn place was blown up?Marc
            Not sure where I found their addy after the bombing, I went through a lot of materials about them so can't remember what originated it-below is a sample of a business registry entry from 1960 showing their address after the war.
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #7
              From an old thread by Frank:

              7th October 1944 was the 50th birthday of Juncker´s general manager Helmuth Napp. The article about his birthday celebrations, in which a couple of sentences are mentioned about his work for the blooming firm of Juncker, does not say a peep about any bombing of Juncker. So when was it supposed to happen?
              Even in the January 1945 issue of the Deutsche Uniformen Zeitschrift, which seems to have been the last one, still no mention of any problems with Juncker (while bombings of other firms actually were mentioned once in a while).

              This would leave many months for that LDO order to take place. I think it is too comfortable to believe nothing has happened in 8, 9 months.

              Of course, Germany would not admit to Juncker being destroyed in papers, that woud be defeatist. But what does this tell us?

              Comment

                #8
                C.E.Juncker

                Hello,


                I can't comment on when or why the makers mark did change.

                But i can on the bombing of the C.E.Juncker factory => that was in December 1944. The German literature does mention this fact multiple times.

                I can send all off you guys a article from my hand that is published in Germany (BDOS Magazine) in Issue nr. 51 wich also does mention this fact in a relation towards the Lw. glider pilots badge.

                Feel free to drop me a mail towards the following adress: stijnd@gmx.net iff you want to receive the article (german written).

                Cordial greetings,
                my collectionfield : German glider pilots


                http://users.skynet.be/lw-glider/

                Comment

                  #9
                  "Back to SW68"- Marc, they still owned the property and one could reasonably assume they planned to rebuild.

                  What other badges/awards did they continue to make after they were bombed out?
                  pseudo-expert

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Don,

                    SW68 fell into the Russian zone after the war. Seeing as Juncker was making West German Bundesverdienstkreuze in Berlin West I doubt they ever returned to the property in Berlin Mitte (Ost).

                    Skip
                    LOOKING FOR ALL ITEMS CONNECTED TO HERBERT SCHOB.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Can we get a solid list of SW68-marked badges? Flak, ROAG, etc.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by skip View Post
                        Don,

                        SW68 fell into the Russian zone after the war. Seeing as Juncker was making West German Bundesverdienstkreuze in Berlin West I doubt they ever returned to the property in Berlin Mitte (Ost).

                        Skip
                        But they wouldn't have known that at the time Skip. As things turned out lots of people including my great grand father lost property in the east after the war.
                        pseudo-expert

                        Comment

                          #13
                          SW68 discussion

                          Hello Marc,


                          There is at this time being NO original Glider pilots badge maker marked with the maker mark with the SW68 designation.

                          All originals from this company as have been found today bear eitehr the maker mark: C.E.Juncker - Berlin SW or nothing.

                          So you can exclude that from the list.

                          Cordial greetings,
                          my collectionfield : German glider pilots


                          http://users.skynet.be/lw-glider/

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Flak88 View Post
                            Can we get a solid list of SW68-marked badges? Flak, ROAG, etc.
                            Marc,

                            Here is an old thread on this subject, with links to yet other threads:

                            http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=SW68

                            In addition to possibly others marked 'SW68', the Flak, ROAG, Pilot, P/O and para have been mentioned.

                            Robert

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Hi Marc,

                              I haven't read the thread that Robert linked, but I wonder ..... do we have examples of a J2 Pilot with the SW68, or does it only appear on the J3s?

                              My point is that the 'sans 68' makermark is a very small and detailed stamp. The 'mit 68' is a larger and bolder font. Could it be so simple as that the zinc needed the bolder stamp?

                              Mark
                              "You can check out any time you like ..... But you can never leave....."

                              Comment

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