C.E.JUNCKER maker mark, pilot badge, OK?

[Robert P.]

This is for all of our Luftwaffe flight badge experts. I found a Juncker 2nd pattern pilot badge on a site yesterday. I sent for a closeup of the maker mark. This is what was sent to me. What do you think of it? I see the 'W' in 'SW' looks good, although isn't the 'S' a little round-cornered for this maker mark? And the rest? Opinions please...

Robert

[IVAN]

it's not so bad this hallmark, it has some good important Juncker's characteristics but don't forget today fakers do very good hallmarks, finish the times we look only mark for see fake or not, you must look all badge.

Ivan

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Robert,

I agree with what Ivan said.

Looks good from what I can see - not heavily struck but crisp enough not to be an obvious casting of the maker's mark.

Regards
Mike K

[Tim Calvert]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

I always got the impression that the hallmark was
"laid on to" hot metal,
rather than
"stamped into" cold metal.

At least on the early Juncker stuff.

Not claiming to know "sh#t".

Teem

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Tim,

Interesting! You're suggesting that the maker's marks were applied before the eagle left the die? If the metal was too hot (soft enough for the marking to be applied with hand pressure only), wouldn't the mark appear less defined, as if it had "run" or melted before the eagle cooled? I've always thought of the marks having been struck of when the badges were still "warm". Then again, both theories could explain double "strikings", weak "strikings" and very heavy strikings. I guess as none of us were there, so we'll never really know. The form of the mark remains the main thing.

Regards
Mike K

[Frank Heukemes]

I also think (not know!) that the mark was impressed while the eagle was still in the die and warm.
Imagine stamping a cold eagle out of the die with the necessary force for that. Wouldn´t that definitely leave some "flattened" area from the immense force on the OBVERSE? So I guess it has to be IN the die.

Cheers, Frank

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Frank, for the sake of the discussion, I can envisage some situations where the obverse would not be damaged if struck out of the die. If the eagle was sitting face down on metal when the marking was applied, I concede the point but if the eagle was placed on leather, wood or hard rubber, the obverse would probably not have been marked in any way when the maker mark was applied. The only thing I can say for certain is that the mark was applied before the finish was applied.

Regards
Mike K

[Tim Calvert]

Back to the beginning...
Robert, I like your hallmark (OK, I admit...I'm drunk!)
Ivan, you're 100% CORRECT...
Mike K. and Frank H...
I dont' know, all I can say is...after hours and hours of sitting on the toilet with a badge and a 10X Loup.....(and no action)...I get the "idea" that the badge was still hot when the hellmark was applied...???

[Lorenzo Brown]

A long overdue subject. I've always felt that the mark had to be applied very soon after being struck while it is still warm and relatively "soft".....at least before the metal became tempered and fully-hardened.

I actually experimented with a cold steel chisel on various pieces of metal lying around the house...galvanized pipe, copper, stainleess steel. I had to hit the chisel using strong force with a hammer to make a small impression. I can't imagine how you could make a small mark on a small badge in that fashion.

I am sure the badge was still warm and soft when the mark was applied...either still in the die or laid on a soft surface.

[Lorenzo Brown]

BTW...Tim...when I said "a long overdue subject"...
I was NOT referring to your bowel movement!

[Tim Calvert]

Hi Zorro,

The moment I get some "movement"... the learning is put on the back burner.

That might be a while.

Better get a SNICKERS!

[Frank Heukemes]

Yes, I thought about the soft surface that will prevent obverse damage. But TRY to stamp something metal that way when it rests on a soft surface! The whole impact gets lost. That why I thought rather in the die.

Cheers, Frank

[IVAN]

...me too I think must be done when is again warm - not hot - => in fact if it was done in cold metal we would see some crack in the corners of the syllable for crashed nervous system of the metal.

Another point for this theory is => we can see different printed by different firms more or not engrave, this can dipend for the production's line of badges, who does near to the die is more engrave, who does it a bit more later - for example Juncker in pilot badges - can be more light.

Ivan

[ERIC S.]

Hi Robert,
I wouldn't be uncomfortable with this mark either - but as Ivan stated I would like to see the whole badge before making a decision, looking for other known and accepted Juncker Characteristics. I have a little something to add on how the mark could have been stamped in the piece - When I was a test shooter at Winchester ( U.S. Repeating Arms Co. ) we would proof stamp the barrel of the gun once a "PROOF" round was fired through it - by hand into cold metal with a hand stamp. The stamping would come out much crisper and clearer when it was done on a gun whose barrel was resting in a wooden stock vs. a plastic or composite stock. The plastic or composite material wouldn't take the blow well therefore causing the stamp to move quickly and resulting in a double or misstrike. But when that cold steel barrel was sitting in a wooden cradle (stock) the stamp would be crisp and concise every time. My thought is that maybe they had wooden bases that took the basic shape of the eagle which the eagle ( in this case ) would rest while the stamping was performed. The wood would absorb the blow as a wood stock absorbs recoil from a discharged cartridge. Cold or warm metal? In this case I would lean towards the metal being warm - especially if this stamping operation was the next performed once the piece was extracted from the die. Just my thoughts!
ERIC
was

[Robert P.]

Thank you.

Thank you, everyone, for your personal inputs.
Unfortunately I cannot get the photo of the badge from Kai's webpage to this forum. There's a trick in doing it, and I don't know it yet. The badge itself is definately a J2, having all of the characteristics of the same maker. Every component part of the badge rings out 'Juncker'.
I too performed a lot of stamping of metals for years in the nuclear industry as a pipe welder. Stamping a hot or very warm piece of pipe left a signature that was deep and clean. The impact of the stamp onto a cold piece of pipe was never as good as warm or hot. I really believe the producers of these badges took advantage of this warm metal rather than try and stamp it later after it was out of the die and cooled off. But then again, the parent metal was only brass. And brass ( buntmetal ) or nickel-silver is a lot softer than ferous materials. I could see them using a simulated wooden die to rest the piece in to strike it. Sure. That may have been done some time later after the die-stamping operation. A whole seperate operation. You know, the eagles were sent to Deumer and JMME to put their own stamp on. So maybe the pieces were stamped out of the die. This would be more logical. And then I remember the thread not too long ago that someone started that illustarted both the Juncker and JMME mark on the same eagle. I think they sold JMME a piece that already had Juncker's mark on it, and JMME stamped it also. Well, so much for theory. I suppose calling a jeweler and asking how this was probably done would help shed new light on this subject. But I think we're really close with these ideas.
Thanks again for all of your help. I am probably going to have to buy the piece and then post my photos to conclude this thread. I'll be in the doghouse for sure then. Can you run a phone line to a doghouse?

Robert