HGW Para Discussion

[Marc Garlasco]

I am trying to work out the possible link between an unmarked Luft Flak and one marked HANS GNAD WIEN. I know the para badges are basically panned, but I would like to revisit them. I am posting a comparison between the para maker mark and the Flak one, and the para photos I have available. I would like a discussion on the merits of the badges, not stories, feelings, or "I think X" unless you have something to back it up.

So, are we looking at outright fakes, were these bought from a larger manufacturer and sold by HGW, or is this a post 45 mark, or something else?

Thanks,
Marc

Left is Para, right is Flak:

[Gene]

I had one years ago, bought from Ed Anderson. I liked it a lot but sold it a few years ago; wish I could be more help. With variants criticized as much as they are, I don't know what to add other than the source was very reputable and trustworthy.

[Frank Heukemes]

From a design point of view, these paras match the Steinhauer & L******252;ck examples. Except for the second example being repainted (eagle, at least on the obverse), they LOOK believable, as far as aging, finish and setup goes.
I think the Hans Gnad = fake stigma is premature and not founded on anything. A bit like the Deutschbein pilot badges. People tend to render these badges fake, because it is the easy way out. Nothing has been proven yet either way, at least not that I am aware of.
If I HAD TO make definitive decision, based purely on gut feeling, I would rather say original.

[Marc Garlasco]

I would love to see Robert do a comparisson of the maker mark. The A in Hans looks similar, and the N in Hans looks the same, but I am not so sure about other letters. Lighting will be an issue of course...
Marc

[skip]

I******180;ve handeled a few but never actually bought one.

Like Frank says, they look like Steinhauer stock. If Gnad really put these together pre 45 is difficult to say. I have******180;nt seen one yet that I******180;d be confident to buy. Your first example shown looks like a copy to me. Second one more promising.

Skip

[robert60446]

I would love to see Robert do a comparisson of the maker mark.

I'm affraid there is not much to work with Marc. This picture was taken in very low resolution...

[Jos L C]

Based purely on how they're made I'd also say original..,I like some features..

Jos.

[Nick Carraway]

Just to note in this thread the unmarked Luft flaks are by Deumer. The Hans Gnad Wien marked ones look like Deumer badges with the HGW marking added...

[Thomas Durante]

Nick, could you tell if the Deumer flaks that were marked with GNAD were actual original Deumer's or were they cast from Deumers?

I was able to study one of these GNAD Para badges during my research for the Para book. The eagle was a very good casting of a Juncker badge (note the cut-off talon). It was not an original Juncker eagle, but rather a casting IMO. The wreath, on the other hand was a casting of an S&L wreath. Based on being able to handle one of these Hans Gnad in person, I believe they are fakes in my opinion.

Tom

[Nick Carraway]

Tom,

Here is the original thread.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=Gnad+flak

Marc had done the first look at these and I don't think he ever got more than photos. But looking at what he posted it looks like the badge has a number of issues including incorrect hardware. I would say probably cast fake as well.

Thanks for chiming in.

Nick

[Kondor]

Before there was any type of forum like this one, I took it upon myself to write directly to the manufacturer to find out about an Army Paratrooper badge that I had with their logo on the reverse. An early quality badge made of tombak and nickle/silver. Below is the response that I received which states that they went out of the badge producing business in 1952. As they invited me to stop by and tour the facility, and as I had a friend that lived in Vienna, I did just that the following fall. The manager stated that they had started producing badges in 38 for the military and naturally stopped in 45. They then made badges/insignia for cars, stores and breweries until 52. So for your consideration is a copy of their letter to me. Do to the quality of the badge, I have held on to it.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Kondor, that is a very interesting letter, thanks for sharing and taking it upon yourself to track down this maker. Very good my friend.

That would certainly lend some credibility to some of the Hans Gnad badges. Did you happen to ask them which badge they made during the war? Did they have a catalog of their products?

I have studied the Luftwaffe Para badges that are marked Hans Gnad, and I am convinced they are fakes. The reason for this is that we can find other badges, exactly like it with different maker marks on it as well, which tells me that someone is/was producing a series of fake badges and marked them with several different maker marks (Hans Gnad, Deumer, Juncker, etc.).

I don't doubt that Hans Gnad was a wartime maker of badges, but I am not convinced they made the Luftwaffe Para badge. What other badges they could have made, I am not sure but would love to know.

Can we see some pics of your Army Para?

Tom

[Kondor]

Here are shots of the para. Eagle is nickle silver, wreath is tombak.
The manager and Hans Gnad was my age (28), so he didn't know which badges that they made and as I was meeting an RKT for lunch I didn't stay to ask about a catalog.

[Kondor]

Clasp shot