P/O by Osang?

[Lorenzo Brown]

"Unless you are not already bored...."

You are NEVER BORING, Frank!

[Mark S.]

here is that airgunner I mentioned.

[Rich G]

Frank

As for the wreath can you see any gilding on there? It looks base metal to me but it's hard to tell from the photos.

Rich

[Frank Heukemes]

@Lorenzo: Thanks!

@Mark: Even another Osang mark on that fake, but note that it is very different, check e.g. where the word Dresden ends (the N) in relation to the last letter above it (G from Osang). These relations are quite right on the badge in question.

@Rich: Yes, there is gilding, it is faded and more present in the lower half of the badge and more on front than on the back.

Ok, now for the next part. Remember those ominous Observer badges that Richard Gordon and me own? Richards in Tombak and mine all Aluminum? We discussed these recently.

Facts then:

-both don´t look downright fake
-Detlev sold the same Aluminum badge some time ago
-both are identical save for different dimensions (Alu smaller)
-eagle is unique (cannot be found on any other obs. badge)
-wreath is unique (cannot be found on any other obs. badge)
-if fake, why not many more of them around?
-if good, why not many more around?

While examining the Osang marked P/O in question, I compared with my other Luftwaffe badges. I also have Richard´s Observer here with me now to compare. And suddenly it dawned on me:

All three badges have the same wreath! (2x observer, 1x Osang)

So the possibilities are:

1) all three are bogus and fake
2) all three are genuine and proof that Osang made Observers and P/O badges.

Assuming possibility 1) is right leaves the following questions:

-why not more fakes around? We should encounter these on dealer´s sites, ebay, etc. Why not?

-Rich´s observer is of VERY high quality, the aluminum observer is a nicely crafted item, the P/O may be as rough as a Juncker 3, but still a lot of effort went into it (handfinishing with little "saw-in" marks) -> unusual for most fakes

-the P/O shows genuine aging: green verdigris (was worse, I cleaned some off), believable wear, believable fading of the gilding. How come? Old fake? If yes, why haven´t we seen more of those?

-why would a faker create a new wreath, new oberver eagle and new pilot´s eagle if he could just make molds from known original badges, stamp them Juncker and then sell them more likely than a "dubious" Osang piece?

Assuming possibility 2) is right leaves the following questions:

-why not more of these around? We should encounter these on dealer´s sites, ebay, reference books, collections, etc. Why not?

A possibility is that Osang made Observers and P/Os (pilot´s badges too?) for a very limited timeframe. For this thesis speaks the fact that all three badges are of "earlier" material. If one of them was zink, that would quickly destroy that "short timeline" theory (all three zink would be good for that thesis too).

What do you think?

As a reminder, here are Rich´s and my observer again, note the exact same wreath design and check against the P/O in question. On the two observers this wreath is very crisp, on the P/O with a bit less detail much like a Juncker 3.

This is a side by side pic on the same scanner bed, scanned at the same time, note the difference in size of these two observers. Connected question: Does aluminum have a lot of shrinkage during the manufacturing process and while cooling off?

Cheers, Frank

[Frank Heukemes]

rev

[Frank Heukemes]

For easier comparison, here again the P/O:

[Frank Heukemes]

Thanks to all who participated do far!

May I please also have opinions from Francois, Yuri, Ivan, Mike K, Andy H, Chris B....etc.? I would really appreciate it, just to get an idea what you all think.

Cheers, Frank

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Gentleman,

I have watched this thread devlope and have learned a great deal to enhance my knowledge of researching the LW pieces in general. Great learning experience for all I am sure, it is always a good excersie to exspand on such pieces.

But, with that said, for ME, I do not think that this piece was produced by Osang, nor do I think it to be original. The piece is crude looking , the maker mark does not look like that of the maker, the wreath, well I would like to see an Osang wreath for a pilots badge for comparison, also thier is no documentation to support the piece, Hard facts, so to speak. I also do not think it to be a proto-type piece as well, just too many holes in it for me. I am not an advanced collector but these are just my thoughts in observing the piece as well as reading the information provided. Sometimes we can over think a piece, I know that I do at times.

But , hey I could be way off in my observatons and this could be a very rare item. I just do not think so.

Best Regards,
JD

[Yuri D.]

Since this is the first time that I have seen this badge, I can say the following: Until I became informed about the BSW pilot and pilot/observer badges being authentic, I wouldn't have believed it. The BSW pilot badges are really crude relative to GWLs or Junckers. But continued evidence made me a believer. Frank, all of your observations about this badge are correct and make sense. But since I have seen such a badge for the fist time, and so have others, It is a difficult choice to make. I think that this badge has attributes of a genuine badge, and of a reproduction. The hinge looks like an Osang hinge, but is cruder than ones that I've seen. And these hinges are"usually" only found on zinc badges in general. The edge of the wreath is very sharp like a CEJ type I. The catch is very "upright" for the type of catch seen. Usually the catch is bent down toward the right by use, or by the recipient for a more "low-profile" arrangement. There is very little wear to the edges of both hinge and catch. One usually seens the bronze (Tombak) exposed on these areas. The wreath does not show filing (finishing) marks on the reverse, like the Osang Para badges do. The obverse of the wreath is not "Osang". I will post images to illustrate my point. The tip of the pin is too sharp. Even though it's sharpened on genuine Osangs, it is a "short" sharpening.


All we've seen in the "big badge" category for Osang are the zinc paratrooper badges. Osang probably existed before the war and may have made a limited run of P/O badges, but until we see more of them from reliable sources, there will be healthy doubt about this badge.

[Yuri D.]

Reverse

[Yuri D.]

Hinge

[Yuri D.]

Catch

[Frank Heukemes]

Thanks Yuri & Joe.
Allow me to make remarks to each detailed opinion posted. It is not a sign of my ignorance, just to correct views you might have because the badge is not in front of you or the pictures are deceiving:

-hinge, this type found on zinc badges: Yes, but Detlev sold an Osang para some time ago (that looked exactly like the one you posted, Yuri, as far as hinge and catch go) and had "Buntmetall" in his description. Maybe a mistake though.

The catch is very "upright" for the type of catch seen: Right, but it seems this catch wire is a bit sturdier/robust than on some other LW badges.

There is very little wear to the edges of both hinge and catch:
That may seem so but isn´t the case. There is wear on both hinge and catch and the gilding is worn off on the parts where you would expect wear. It is just very hard to see on pictures, because the base metal and the faded gilding are very similar in tone.

The wreath does not show filing (finishing) marks on the reverse, like the Osang Para badges do:
Right.

The obverse of the wreath is not "Osang". :
Right, but it doesn´t neccessarily have to be. BSW e.g. also has totally different wreath design for pilot´s badges and for their paras.

The tip of the pin is too sharp:
Can´t agree here. I have an Osang para and the pin is just as sharp and pointy. See pic below.

Osang probably existed before the war :
Definitely, I read this in our own Imperial forum, Osang made Imperial badges as well.

Please note that this is not just about your opinion on the P/O badge. All three badges (P/O, Rich´s observer and my Alu observer) are linked through the same wreath. We would have to either believe in all three or condemn all three.

I have added detail shots of my Osang para rivets compared to the P/O rivets

Cheers, Frank

[Frank Heukemes]

Osang PARA rivet left

[Frank Heukemes]

P/O in question rivet left