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**TobyR** · 01-13-2003, 07:25 AM

And here's the back:

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l_pilot_rev001_fin.jpg (30.8 KB, 527 views)

**Frank Heukemes** · 01-13-2003, 08:08 AM

Dear Toby,

It is a late war pilot´s badge of an unknown maker, who´s design is similar to GWL´s design. The hinge is perfectly ok for this type badge. Normally the wing tips are just crudely "sawed in" slits, you even have a more refined cutout. IMO, this badge is fine although it commands a price which is lower than Buntmetall pilot´s badges. Anything up to 250.- USD would still be ok, you shouldn´t have paid more than that.

Cheers, Frank

**Rich G** · 01-13-2003, 08:22 AM

Hi Frank

IMO, I disagree with your statement that these are late war. Yes, late war if zinc, but in tombak (which I think this one is) then they would be earlier. Yes, the late zinc ones do have crudely cut wing tips but not the the earlier one as in this case (again IMO).

I think the earlier badges by this unknown maker are really underestimated... I've seen plenty that have superb finishing (my P/O badge for example) and made from quality materials. It just seems they're just 'not as sexy' as those fuound from the 'premier' luftwaffe badge makers.

Based on that I would also put the value higher, slightly lower that the 'Marked' tombak badges from the known treandy makers such as Junckers, BSW, etc. but certainly way over $250. If I could find these for $250 I'd be snapping them up!

Rich

ps as a side-line question, I've seen this hinge type on pilot, P/o, flak and parabadges. Has anyone seen it on observer or air-gunner badges??

**TobyR** · 01-13-2003, 08:35 AM

Frank and Rich,

Many thanks for your thoughts on my pilot's badge. The badge is tombak, so I too would think (now that the hinge has been verified) that it's an earlier badge.

It was the hinge that puzzled me, as I said before the modelling quality is really good, especially the eagle's chest, wings and talons. The eagle has a really powerful look about it too (just something about the angle of the head).

Thanks again.

Toby.

PS If anyone has any further thoughts about the maker I'd love to hear.

**Frank Heukemes** · 01-13-2003, 08:36 AM

Dear Gordon,

You are right. The zink ones not only have the crude cutout, but also a different hinge. So it is the type I was talking about, but the Buntmetall variant, not the zink one. I agree that a Buntmetall one should be priced over 250 USD. 250 USD would be ok for the zink one.

Cheers, Frank

**Mike Kenny** · 01-13-2003, 09:28 AM

Hi Toby,

I agree with Rich's initial assesment - a quality original badge by an unkown maker - and undervalued imo. I have not seen the obverse left wingtip cut out so well on one of these before - nice touch on this example. Toby, could you confirm that both the wreath AND eagle are tombak (ie bronze-like basmetal)?

Re whether this type of badge is pre/early/mid/late war, I'd say probably early to mid war. I have a cased PO of this type (tombak wreath & nickel-silver eagle - same as Albert's example currently on the E-stand) stright from the German LW Major's family. From the accompanying documentation, he earned it late in 1941. No actual PO doc unfortunately but LW Flugzeugfuhrerfschein dated Sept 41 and he had already qualified for the Beobachterabz in 1938.

I've since picked up a late-war zinc PO badge made from the same dies (wreath and eagle) but using a folded over army-type hinge and chunky flatwire C catch (no provenance for this one though).

Regards
Mike K

**Joseph D'Errico** · 01-13-2003, 10:04 AM

Hello Toby,

In reference to price point, if tomback; I think your more over the $400.00 mark. In the ever increasing popularity of Luft pieces the price points keep going up and up.

I also think that this is a desirable piece, especially for those of us that focus on Luft pieces and want to complete the series. I mean minus the maker mark; in general terms of the unknown maker, I think that the piece shows very nice details, even better than some of the marked examples. Just some thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Best Regards,
JD

**Yuri D.** · 01-13-2003, 11:10 AM

Guys,

I've been thinking a lot about that unmarked Pilot-Pilot/Observer Badge with the eagle that looks like the GWL eagle. We know that JMME and IMME had completely used Juncker parts (in all examples we have seen) for their early Buntmetal badges. We also know that Deumer used Juncker eagles in some of their early badges.

These are the only examples of another badge firm using someone else's patented design. Now take the unmarked badge with the eagle that has about 90% of a marked GWL badge's characteristics.

What's different?

1. The swastika is thinner.
2. The feathers on the left wing of the eagle are cut out
3. The eagle's body is a little-bit longer.
4. The shape of some of the feathers. On the GWL marked badges, the fethers are more rounded, while on the unmarked badge, they are all sharper and more defined.

What is similar?

1. The position of ALL the feathers.
2. The structure of ALL the feathers.
3. The number of feathers on the right wing (30)
4. The number of feathers on the left wing (30)
5. The "fang" on the eagle's beak
6. The claws are very similar
7. The shape of the eagle's head.

Now, there is a very high probability that GWL made more than one mould for their Pilot's badge. Maybe the first one broke, or they made another form for 3rd party vendors (like JMME for Juncker). What I'm saying is that all clues point to the most probable fact that these are indeed unmarked GWL badges. And until we find concrete proof otherwise, we should begin naming them as such.

What are your thoughts on this?

Yuri

**TobyR** · 01-13-2003, 12:28 PM

Back to Mike's mail for a moment:

Yes I'm confident that the wreath is tombak. As for the eagle I believe that too to be tombak (failing that its neusilber).

Cheers,
Toby.

And with that back to Yuri's post ...

**Rich G** · 01-13-2003, 12:53 PM

Yuri

Interesting theory. Lets put it this way... has anyone ever seen a ZINC GWL marked pilot badge? We know they made badges in zinc (flak, para, radio-op, etc) but I've never seen a GWL pilot badge in zinc... so your theory could hold up but here's where I think it falls down:

These unmarked badges can be found in early all the way through to zinkers with the early badges in high quality construction and finish... (see attached example) so, if GWL broke the pilot badge die and made a new one why would they change the construction and finish methods? No more donut rivets, completely different hinge and catch, completely different finishing techiques? See, it just doesn't make sense.

I think the same artisan made the dies for both GWL and this unknown company and just maybe the unknown company didn't mark their badges because they essentially copied the GWL badge and therefore couldn't mark it as their own due to risk of copyright (if such a thing existed then).

My theory has mega down falls as well because of the LDO... They wanted awards marked for quality control but maybe qualification awards didn't fall into their category and only combats did?

It's a never ending list of possibilities but IMO this badge was not made by GWL

Rich

**Adrian** · 01-13-2003, 12:53 PM

Hello All,

Here is my badge from this maker, purchased from Detlev (as you can tell by the pic) and made from zinc. The hinge is the same as on Toby`s badge and the wingtips are crudely cut out. I paid £169 for it but as you can tell the catch is missing.

Best regards,
Adrian.

**Albert** · 01-13-2003, 02:10 PM

One of the best looking badges

Dear All,

Just to add my two cents. Mint badges by this maker are a beauty to behold. They are very detailed with nice polish to the highlights, the top of the eagle' wings, and the sides of the wreath. Indeed, they look like GWL marked badges, my favourite ones btw, but are not produced by the same set of tooling.

The obverse is certainly unique for the pin assembly with a rather not so appealing hinge.

As was said before, thanks Rich + Mike, they are totaly under appreciated by collector's who, especialy in the Anglo Saxon corner of the world, have developed a fetish for anything Juncker

Maybe a challenging statement, but I think it has some truth to it.

Best regards,

Al

**Adrian** · 01-13-2003, 03:27 PM

Toby,

Take a look at merdocks "pilot badge" thread a bit further down the page, there you will see the another similar badge but in zinc.

Best regards,
Adrian

**TobyR** · 01-13-2003, 04:28 PM

Adrian,

You're right. It's certainly similar but the wing-ends are still not as deeply cut.

Thanks,
Toby.

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Help me sleep tonight! Take a look at my Pilot's Badge - Please!

Help me sleep tonight! Take a look at my Pilot's Badge - Please!

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