Pilots Badge

[Frank Heukemes]

and all the way back to the pilot to find this same variation setup with ? catch:

[Frank Heukemes]

hollow FLL PAB, note ? catch and variation hinge

[Frank Heukemes]

unknown maker Tombak P/O with classic hinge and ? catch

[Frank Heukemes]

Did I make somebody dizzy? I am! Quite some brainstorming on the fly. This should give some food for thought.
I wanted to save this for the pilot badge book and do it properly there, but looking at my book poll, this might take some years, so I hammered it out now! Thoughts?

P.S.: Sorry that I did not mention which badge belongs to whom, you guys know who you are. Let me know if there is a problem.

[mmiller]

Hi Frank,

Your theory is pretty convincing, I must say. Here is a strange question, not meant to refute, but just as a thought. FLL did a pretty good job putting makermarks on most other of their products. Why would they not want to put the makermarks on their whole Luft series of badges?

Mark


PS - Go for the Pilot - Pilot/Observer NEXT!

[robert60446]

Dear Frank,
When I can clearly see your point (and you demonstrated this very well with detailed hardware pictures) I still have my concerns. What if just by coincidence these guys were buying their hardware from the same supplier? And MArk has a very good point:

FLL did a pretty good job putting makermarks on most other of their products. Why would they not want to put the makermarks on their whole Luft series of badges?

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Robert,

I agree, everything is possible in this world. I will not defend this theory, I just wanted to present it.

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Mark,

Why would they not want to put the makermarks on their whole Luft series of badges?

No idea, but they would not be the first one to do it. An example: B&NL marked their para, Flak, radio op/air gunner, pilot (did i forget something?) but never (it seems) their GABs and IABs, although they are clearly definable as B&NL.

[robert60446]

Dear Robert,

I agree, everything is possible in this world. I will not defend this theory, I just wanted to present it.

Dear Frank,
No, no, no, don't get me wrong. Your theory is extremely interesting and presented by you pictures absolutely are telling us something. Maybe it will spark some blasting discussion which will lead us to some interesting conclusions.

[Frank Heukemes]

No problem, Rob, you just warmed me up for Hans!

[Frank Heukemes]

One silly thing, but important for me: When you hold the zinc pilot badge and the FLL GAB in your hands, these just FEEL like one and the same maker. Hard to put into words, it is a combination of materials, their structure and finish.

[Philippe DB]

Dear Frank,


Well this all looks very convincing to me and although we know different makers shared the same hardware the combinations in which this hardware was used on different badges wasn't always the same.

At this moment I'm 90% confident that FLL indeed could be the maker of these luftwaffe badges. The absence of a mm doesn't really bother me that much. In fact what did FLL mark? IMO FLL only started to use their mm on later products as there mm "FLL 43 " indicates. How long did it take before we saw the first marked FLL GAB, so who knows there might well be a similar marked zinc luftwaffe badge out there.

What could close the circle for me is finding Cupal or Alu FLL badges.

KR
Philippe

[mmiller]

Frank,

Yes true. And please, as Robert mentioned, we are not questioning your photo documentary (!) here. I think we are all just thinking out loud.

And I always wonder about the actual physical manufacturing facilities. I don't think that we should assume that FLL was necessarily one nicely, neatly, integrated facility, that had all products manufactured under one roof. There could have been FLL Contractors, and FLL Sub-Contractors, and so on. We can't assume the same quality control, and assembly line procedures as we know exists in 2005, existed in '43-'45. As Robert brought up, and as I'm sure you concur, parts were being swapped. Maybe someone on the 'other side of town' was making the Luft Badges for FLL, who actually 'marketed' the product???



Mark

[mmiller]

Hi Philippe,

I knew it was just a matter of time before you would chime in!

The absence of a mm doesn't really bother me that much. In fact what did FLL mark? IMO FLL only started to use their mm on later products as there mm "FLL 43 " indicates.

Yes I agree, but aren't the majority of the unknown maker (AKA FLL?)Luft badges later war zink badges, as in after '43? And the FLL marked NKSs were all later zink badges.

Mark

PS - I'll be back later, got to take the 'Lady' to the Shopping Mall.

[Frank Heukemes]

All good thoughts guys, but I learned only to think complicated when the situation calls for it. Up to now, this is quite simple:

2 sets of hinges
3 sets of catches

all of them found in many possible combinations

Don´t neglect the "feel". The FLL GAB is a monster of a badge, fat, weighing in at 39 grams. The unknown maker pilots are also very chunky, fat and utterly heavy.
The hinge with that flat, large hingepin is quite unique.

I am also convinced that a number of flight clasps can be linked to FLL, although never marked.