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**mmiller** · 09-18-2005, 11:42 AM

Albert,

I'm not quite sure I understand your Q & A reply. The answers seem ambiguous, to me at least. One thing of note... check your authentic Osang Bomber clasp. Note at the very top of the wreath, in the center, see the little berries. Now check my authentic Osang Air-to-Ground Clasps (even though they aren't bomber clasps). Note at the very top of the wreath, in the center, see the little berries. Now check Tony's (unknown maker) Bomber clasp. Note at the very top of the wreath, in the center, no little berries. His clasp is not an Osang.

So what is it. You stated that IMME, R.S.&S., and Juncker, had clasps with triangular cut-outs. I don't have any images of those maker's clasps. Do you, or can anybody provide images of those maker's Bomber Clasps, so we can ID Tony's badge. That is all we are trying to do here, I think.

Your Answer to my number #1 question (WOW, you really made it official) was: "A: One can't compare tool characteristics, finish, and hardware." I must be misunderstanding your answer, because as it is interpreted, I disagree 100%. We always compare tool characteristics, finish, and hardware, that is exactly what we do. How else could we possibly study the relics? As I said, I must be mising something here?

Hopefully, someone can provide images of a clasp like Tonys, or as Albert averred, images of an IMME, R.S.&S., or Juncker clasp, which also had triangular cut-outs.

Regards,
Mark

**mmiller** · 09-18-2005, 11:47 AM

Frank,

Can we attribute this unmarked clasp to IMME, R.S.&S., or Juncker?

Regards,
Mark

**Frank Heukemes** · 09-18-2005, 12:01 PM

I checked Juncker clasps, they do have the same technique to drill/form the triangle holes, but the Juncker clasps are different in design. I think Juncker can be EXCLUDED.

**Albert** · 09-18-2005, 12:17 PM

Mark,

Well, sorry if the answers seem ambiguos. I totally agree that Tony's clasp is not an Osang, which was my point to start with; it was you who was assuming that it was. You based your assumption on your the information ("as far as I know") that only Osang used triangs and I listed some makers that did that too.

I don't know the maker of Tony's clasp. I wish I did. I do have pics of clasps with triangular cut outs but they are not bombers therefore not really helpful.

My answer to your #1 question was not official

, maybe short but surely not official. Indeed we have a misunderstanding there. We totally agree that the points I mentioned are most important

! But they work best when you compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I would assume that a maker would have different tools for the different types of clasps resulting in different "finger prints". Finish on a zinc clasp might look and would likely react different than finish on a BM clasp. The hardware used would be different. Therefore, it was my conlusion that departing from what you had said and from the samples you had presented one would not be able to arrive at a point where one could tell the maker of Tony's clasp.

So far there seems to be one thing we know for sure it's not an Osang. Unless they had too tools

.

Best regards,

Albert

PS: if you or anybody is interested I still can show pics of the cutouts from the various makers.

**Luftm40** · 09-18-2005, 12:51 PM

Here is the back of an IMME recon clasp...come to think of it, has anyone seen IMME marked clasps OTHER than recon??

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DSCN3307.JPG (127.4 KB, 245 views)

**Albert** · 09-18-2005, 01:05 PM

Good question Andy! I have not.

But there are recon clasps by other makers

. Here is a gold IMME that is in my collection, and a bronze Juncker that I used to own (I hope the new owner doesn't mind). The cutouts on the Juncker are quite nice

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cc.JPG (55.0 KB, 246 views)

**Tony** · 09-18-2005, 05:37 PM

clasp

Thank you all for your comments and help

I do believe the scanner did distort the finish on this clasp. Although, the finish on this one is quite bright to begin with. I took more pictures with a digital camera. The camera flash also distorts, but is closest to the real finish. I have provided pictures of the whole pin (as requested) and a close up of the reverse.

To summarize the comments, it does not appear the maker is Osang (lack of berries) or Junckers (design). So the search goes on.

Regards,
Tony

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pic3.jpg (62.0 KB, 254 views)

**Tony** · 09-18-2005, 05:42 PM

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Untitled-Scanned-02.jpg (27.8 KB, 253 views)

**Tony** · 09-18-2005, 05:45 PM

closeup

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pic3.jpg (63.8 KB, 252 views)

**mmiller** · 09-18-2005, 05:56 PM

Hello Albert,

Thanks for the two PMs.

Preface; I don't generally get into this type of discussion as it is contrary to what our collecting family is all about. But I feel that Albert seems to want to make things a bit personal. So my response will address those issues,

To clarify, true, my assumption of the badge was based on 'all that I know', and I prefaced my comments with those exact words. Who does know all? You Albert? I don't know it all, and I, at least admitted it by chosing my wording.... 'all that I know'. What else, other than what I know, exists for me. Sorry that I am not all-knowing. I guess I'll just have to work harder. But getting to the badge........

The gilt hue of the obverse raises a flag for me. It has been suggested that it could be scanner issues, the neon light, etc. Yes, that is very possible. BUT, are we sure, or are these ....assumptions? We are constantly concerned about the regilting of original badges on the Badge Forum. And that's why I raised the issue. Are you positive that the obverse has not been painted, regilted, or polished? If so, how do you know from the color disorted images? If Troy's images are extremely bright, then how on earth do you know what the real color of the gilt is, unless you have seen the badge! If the images presented had color distortions, then the images we saw were invalid for discerning accurate color tones. Period. How could you know what the actual gilt color is? It was not presented.

Albert, you wrote, "I totally agree that Tony's clasp is not an Osang, which was my point to start with; it was you who was assuming that it was." I'm not sure how you derived that. I never said that. You are making an incorret assumption. What I wrote was, "The Osang triangs are very pronounced. Your badge's cuts are slightly different than Osangs. Not as nicely done." Simply put, not Osangs. I was stating that the badge in question was different from, and thereforre could not be, an Osang. The reason I was initially focusing on Osang was not to make Tony's clasp an Osang. It was the complete opposite. I thought I made that point. I showed examples of four Osang Front Flight Clasps, to point out the differences between the style of cutouts on Tony's badge, and on mine. Again, the point was to show that Tony's clasp was NOT Osang. You mised the point.

My direction with the triangle cuts was to try to ascertain a maker, and then to compare that maker's traits, with Tony's badge. Isn't it 'proper procedure' with an unmarked badge, to look for characteristics of a known maker, and proceed from there? I see just that done all day long on the Forum!?! How would you, Albert, go about identifying an unmarked badge?

Once you indicated that other makers also had the triangles, I was interested in seeing images. I asked for them, didn't I? I new it wasn't Osang, but who was it? I don't think anybody reading this knows, do they? Do you? That almost puts us all in the 'as far as I know category', just making assumptions... Don't we have to eliminate known makers, one by one? That is what I was trying to find out from the beginning. I wanted to eliminate Osang, and go from there. Then, things got convoluded.

I am glad now that we have images of makermarked Juncker and IMME clasps with triangular cutouts, as you indicated in the thread. However, Frank mentioned that Juncker cutouts were different, and Juncker could be excluded. Andy raises the question, did IMME even make a bomber clasp. Does that mean those two companies are out of the selection process? Now, we need an image of the third maker you said made these triangular cutout clasps, RS&S. With refernce to Tony's badge, can we now say that it isn't an unmarked Osang, Juncker, or IMME.

Regards,
Mark

**luftwaffe303** · 09-19-2005, 12:39 AM

Bomber clasp RS&S in silver with triangular cut outs ...
Thanks
Thomas

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IMG_3585.JPG (58.7 KB, 241 views)

**luftwaffe303** · 09-19-2005, 12:40 AM

close up

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IMG_3586.JPG (37.3 KB, 242 views)

**luftwaffe303** · 09-19-2005, 12:41 AM

pin on RS&S in silver

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IMG_3590.JPG (54.6 KB, 243 views)

**luftwaffe303** · 09-19-2005, 12:44 AM

and the front

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IMG_3591.JPG (56.9 KB, 243 views)

**Albert** · 09-19-2005, 02:43 AM

Hello Mark and All,

Mark, please reread my posts. There is nothing “personal” in them. I was addressing relevant text passages and picture references. Plus, there was nothing personal in our pm exchange. Quite on the contrary, it was constructive. Therefore, your last post comes as quite a surprise. It features some unmotivated “personal” passages such as: “Who does know all? You Albert?”. Such rethorics doesn’t contribute to a constructive dialogue and brings ZAV to the topic. If you generally don’t get into this type of discussion you should not start it here either.

However, since, as they say, it always takes two, I express regret to Mark and all for the misunderstandings I might have caused. With that I consider this part as closed, and am only too glad to continue the on-topic conversation. And of course look forward to meeting you in person if you visit <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><ST1

Nuremberg</ST1

</st1:City> next year!

So, back to the topic. Thomas, thanks for the pics. I was going to post mine but they would be of a zink piece so yours are much better. What we can say so far is that Tony’s badge is not made by Osang, Juncker, R.S.S. Plus it is not like the “text book” un-marked one presented by Torsten.

I still don’t have issues with the colour of the obverse. From my observation the finish on the obverse and reverse usually is different with the obverse being more smooth with polished highlights which reflect light to a degree where the pics (at least when I take them) really get distorted. Mark is right, however, even though the reverse looks fine one would need to examine the clasp in hand to be 100% sure it was not refinished.

Tony has posted a detailed pic of the reverse of the wreath. What I see is a very nice finish to the inside perimeter of the wreath showing a lot of leaf contour. This is different from the bomber clasps we saw so far. It is also different from what I remember seeing. I am not interpreting this but would like to ask a couple of questions. Tony, is that due to hand finishing or does it look cut out by a tool? Has anybody seen this before on a bomber clasp?

Best regards,

Albert<O

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