Werner Hoffman bad goblet from Scholz Militaria

[Gardereiter]

None of you acknowledged and/or addressed Jeff V's extremely critical observation made in Post No. 16 above:

"How is it that no patina is in the engraving? looks like it was engraved last week."

So I guess I'll restate Jeff V's question: Why is there no patina in the engraving to match the patina on the rest of the goblet?

[e-maus]

Only my 3 cents...
Nice mess, I have good experiences with Frank, that's why I find it hard to believe in his ill will

[Jeff V]

You guys can argue about dates and fonts until you're all blue in the face, but none of you acknowledged and/or addressed Moderator Jeff V's extremely critical observation made in Post No. 16 above (and with which I agree for reasons described below.) Jeff V stated:

"How is it that no patina is in the engraving? looks like it was engraved last week."

I was walking down an aisle at the Max Show several years ago and encountered a small group of collectors huddled around the table of a dealer who had at least a dozen Honor Goblets in a glass case on his table. The dealer was holding-up a genuine goblet that somebody tried to sell him and screaming about the obvious lack of patina in the recesses of the engraving. It, too, looked like it had been engraved last week.

This is the extent of my exposure to and knowledge about the subject of "Patina" or the lack thereof in the engraving of a genuine Honor Goblet. It stuck in my head, however, because of how knowledgeably and passionately this dealer was lecturing the small crowd about Honor Goblet engravings in general.

So I guess I'll restate Jeff V's question: Why is there no patina in the engraving to match the patina on the rest of the goblet?

If I understand Jelle the situation is this: On Alpaca goblets there is a thin silver plating over a base metal of some type. The engraving penetrates the thin silver plate so that as the silver goblet tarnishes the engraving is untarnished because in the engraving, it is the base metal, showing not silver. On a solid silver goblet, obviously the engraving would have to be tarnished like the whole goblet.

[Gardereiter]

If I understand Jelle the situation is this: On Alpaca goblets there is a thin silver plating over a base metal of some type. The engraving penetrates the thin silver plate so that as the silver goblet tarnishes the engraving is untarnished because in the engraving, it is the base metal, showing not silver. On a solid silver goblet, obviously the engraving would have to be tarnished like the whole goblet.

Well, I guess you answered your own question. Very useful information to have.

[Wim Vangossum]

If I understand Jelle the situation is this: On Alpaca goblets there is a thin silver plating over a base metal of some type. The engraving penetrates the thin silver plate so that as the silver goblet tarnishes the engraving is untarnished because in the engraving, it is the base metal, showing not silver. On a solid silver goblet, obviously the engraving would have to be tarnished like the whole goblet.

Sound pretty logical to me. The alpaca -a copper and nickel based alloy- will develop at its best only a yellowish patina but certainly no black like on massive silver made item. You see the same on alpaca made stahlhelm traditions badges. The engraving of the date shows pure alpaca in its yellowish color.

Regards, Wim

[e-maus]

Well, I guess you answered your own question. Very useful information to have.

really ?

[Jelle M.]

If I understand Jelle the situation is this: On Alpaca goblets there is a thin silver plating over a base metal of some type. The engraving penetrates the thin silver plate so that as the silver goblet tarnishes the engraving is untarnished because in the engraving, it is the base metal, showing not silver. On a solid silver goblet, obviously the engraving would have to be tarnished like the whole goblet.

Hi Jeff,

a very logical explanation. However it's misleading to use the term 'silver' when speaking of alpaca items. Alpaca has no actual silver content and is totally different.
Like Wim mentions it is a mixture of different kinds of metals like copper, nickle, iron, zinc... and has 0% sterling silver content. It might be possible that, if the pokal is plated, that by engraving a different basemetal comes to light that is less vulnerable to tarnish than the surface. Sounds like a possible explanation.

Another possibility that i'm thinking of is that it might be caused by the tool that was used to engrave the inscriptions. Alpaca is in fact stronger than sterling silver so it's safe to assume other tools were used than when engraving 835 goblets. Think of the heat that is produced when engraving a text into a metal. It might be possible that, by the heat, the tip of the tool get's worn out and remants stay behind in the lettering, also preventing it to tarnish. It is possible. We have seen that on flight badges as well. The best example for that is the IMME po with often shiny gold wreaths and completely dark, tarnished birds. Weird right? Simple reason for that is that the bird was coated with some kind of finish which did not stood the test of time and tarnished much quicker than the wreath. I know this has nothing to do with engraving but i just mention it to illustrate it is not unusual to see objects that are partly tarnished.

There are plenty of alpaca goblets on the market that have this kind of engraving that looks like it was done yesterday but still they are period. In my previous post i attached a few examples of that. All genuine goblets, often the lowest ranks possible and none of them show signs of re-engraving. It is nothing to worry about and these are totally textbook. The fact that these pieces still have the contrast between the engraving and the rest of the pokal means that they were stored in ideal conditions. There are also many alpaca goblets that are completely tarnished like we used to see on 835 goblets. To give an example, if an alpaca goblet is stored in an environment where people smoke cigarettes for decades of years it will be 100% tarnished, engraving and body. No doubt about that.
That said, people who are interested in purchasing a goblet should always be on guard. There are plenty of messed with pokals on the market.

Jelle

[Jeff V]

The Alpaca goblet sure looks silver plated to me based on the look of the tarnish. Anyway, interesting discussion.

[blind pew]

I left my computer on BAD

[Gardereiter]

really ?

Yes, really. Where I come from, if a person asks a question, and then provides an answer to that question, he has answered his own question.

What puzzles me are your remarks regarding the dealer who sold this goblet.

What does a dealer's character, reputation or your past experiences with him have to do with a discussion about an artifact? Each item should be objectively evaluated on its own merits based purely on physical evidence... not on the reputation of the dealer who sold it.

I will say this about your dealer friend... based on what I read above, I am quite unimpressed with his customer relations approach. I would think that after being contacted by the thread-starter, this dealer would have made an effort to resolve this issue in a businesslike manner, especially if he provides a "Lifetime Guarantee" on his items. Instead, he tells the customer to "Go to hell" ???? I find that a bit unsettling.

[John T]

With regards to why the engraved area on an alpaca would look "new" I believe that would be because the layer under the silver-plate may be aluminum and that would not tarnish.

[Max Wünsche]

There is absolute nothing wrong at all with it. No idea what should be wrong with the engraving. Also it is a match in my Books. And sorry, Emedals to use as an Expert Opinion is not really a very good Choice.....

I agree.... As has been proven over the years, 'Emedals' or 'EmbellishMedals' has had more than its fair share of dubious and dressed up items listed for sale.

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[HAF]

engraving look OK from those photos above, not sure what should be wrong with this goblet. Who is Barry Turk anyhow ...

questionable dealer from emedals company a lot of sh.......t he offere in hes auctions ,Canada based

[Tony K]

Why wouldn't he want that back if original? Offer it to a couple of the high end dealers, if original I would think they would at least make an offer. If they are not interested at any price I would say you got screwed. Do any of the members claiming original wish to buy it?

[Wim Vangossum]

The harm is already done; original or not, the piece is burned now. It doesn't help anymore to say Alcapa doesn't tarnish.