Werner Hoffman bad goblet from Scholz Militaria

[Jeff V]

Here are the photos.

The dates do not match either Werner Hoffman, the Stuka pilot nor the night fighter.

How is it that no patina is in the engraving? looks like it was engraved last week.

[blind pew]

Not sure what you mean with that.
That is a textbook engraving.


Jelle

The date is wrong for both the Stuka pilot and the night fighter.

Look at the font of the letters and the numbers as well.

[Robert H]

with that photos I agree, just wonder how that comes?

Hi Jelle
the "thickness" and shape of the letters are not what we usually see
KR
Jacek

[blind pew]

with that photos I agree, just wonder how that comes?

Here is the ehrenpokal information for Werner Hoffman the Stuka pilot. One can see the dates are not even close.


HOFFMANN

, Werner. (DOB: 07.08.20 in Hersbruck). (R, DKG). 1939 began Flak training on the isle of Usedom. 1939/40 trf to Stukaschule 2. 04.40 with St.G. 1. 27.09.41 promo to Lt. 04.08.42 Lt., awarded the Ehrenpokal. 01.03.43 Lt., awarded DKG, 1./St.G. 5. 07.43 Staka 1./St.G. 5. 01.09.43 in St.G. 1, promo to Oblt. 30.10.43 Staka 1./St.G. 1. 01.05.44 promo to Hptm. 06.44 Hptm., appt Kdr. I./SG 1 (to 07.02.45). 08.08.44 awarded Ritterkreuz, Staka 1./SG 1. 02.45 attached to a company in 9. SS-Panzerdivision “Hohenstaufen” as a Stuka-Leitoffizier – the Kp.chef was Oskar-Karl Hoffmann, Werner’s brother. 07.02.45 KIA in a Fw 190 F-8 after a hit by Soviet AA while attacking a bridgehead vic Frankfurt/Oder. His remains were never found.

The vendor, Frank Scholz, despite this information, refuses a refund and claims it is all legit, which it is not. I am surprised, as most legit vendors would honor what their policy says.

Note it says "awarded ehrenpokal 1/3/43. (this is for the Stuka pilot). Look at the dates for the DKiG- given that this would be awarded after the ehrenpokal, the date (the one sited above, not the one on the goblet) makes sense.

The goblet says 4/8/42

Not even close. It appears as though this was a goblet created as an attempt to be the Werner Hoffman nightfighter goblet, but they got that date wrong as well.

So is there anyone here who would say that this is a legitimate ehrenpokal?

[blind pew]

Without high quality pictures it is completely useless to discuss a matter like this.
I agree that from the pictures posted by Thomas all looks fine but one these pictures details (like file marks) cannot be seen.
The lettering looks indeed typical Wagner, with a quality and straight engraving.
It is most likely that Turk confused the two Werner Hoffmann's with eachother and so making up his mind the goblet is bad.
Like mentioned by Thomas, the traces of war archive is not always correct. I have noticed that before when researching info about certain soldiers.
Stuka Werner did indeed receive the pokal and it's not listed in his award list.

Jelle

There are high quality pictures.

We have evidence that:

1. the font is wrong
2. the date on the goblet is incorrect for both Hoffmann the stuka pilot and Hoffman the nightfighter.
3. Look at the date for the Stuka pilot as well as when he was awarded the DKig

Now try to explain/rationalize this as a legitimate piece. I guess if I was a dealer, I would try to make things right, as I did with Barry Turk. I really would not want to be known as a crook, particularly if I was a dealer.

[Jelle M.]

The date is wrong for both the Stuka pilot and the night fighter.

Look at the font of the letters and the numbers as well.

That reply was not on the goblet that started this thread. It was a reply to Jacek who commented on the textbook engraving on Alex’ goblet.


Jelle

[Jelle M.]

There are high quality pictures.

We have evidence that:

1. the font is wrong
2. the date on the goblet is incorrect for both Hoffmann the stuka pilot and Hoffman the nightfighter.
3. Look at the date for the Stuka pilot as well as when he was awarded the DKig

Now try to explain/rationalize this as a legitimate piece. I guess if I was a dealer, I would try to make things right, as I did with Barry Turk. I really would not want to be known as a crook, particularly if I was a dealer.

1) There is no single evidence that the font is wrong. It is absolutely textbook. There are no significan signs that a former inscription was removed.
Better pictures are required, the ones you post are poor as well.
Jeff mentions a good point about the patina of the pokal but it's common to find white lettering on Alpaca goblets. Please don't compare these with 835 pieces. A totally different basemetal. In attachement i will add several pictures from different goblets with an identical lettering and font.

2) What is your source that confirms the date is wrong? Did you go through official instances?

3) Again what is your source? According to the attachement by Thomas he was awarded the dkig after the ehrenpokal.

I don't have any dog in this fight but i feel this is a genuine goblet in unmessed condition. I don't know why you hold on to Barry Turk. Not a bad word of him but take a look at the inventory of sold items on his site. Endless dubious items and reproductions. It looks like you are shaming another dealer soley based upon Barry's opinion without doing research yourself.

Jelle

[Thomas H]

HOFFMANN

, Werner.
04.08.42 Lt., awarded the Ehrenpokal.
01.03.43 Lt., awarded DKG, 1./St.G. 5.

the date comes first, then the rank, the award and in the case of the German Cross the unit is also given.

I double check these dates with my reference books and they are correct. Althought the Goblet gets the publication date in the reference book (10.08.42), as Thomas (Silver) already told us.

so it seems the date is correct for the Stuka RKT.

Regards, Thomas

[waterloo]

Der von Frank Scholz verkaufte Pokal ist 100% original und stimmt mit den bekannten Daten der Pokalverleihung an den Stukaflieger und Ritterkreuzträger Werner Hoffman überein.
Ein tadelloses, für mich zweifelsfreies Stück. Um es abschließend deutlich zu sagen: Wer dies in Zweifel zieht hat keine Ahnung von Ehrenpokalen.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
waterloo (Thomas Will, Deutschland)

[chen]

In my humble opinion, that Pokal to Stuka pilot Werner Hoffman is "absolutely" genuine.

[lewjian]

, Werner. (DOB: 07.08.20 in Hersbruck). (R, DKG). 1939 began Flak training on the isle of Usedom. 1939/40 trf to Stukaschule 2. 04.40 with St.G. 1. 27.09.41 promo to Lt. 04.08.42 Lt., awarded the Ehrenpokal. 01.03.43 Lt., awarded DKG, 1./St.G. 5. 07.43 Staka 1./St.G. 5. 01.09.43 in St.G. 1, promo to Oblt. 30.10.43 Staka 1./St.G. 1. 01.05.44 promo to Hptm. 06.44 Hptm., appt Kdr. I./SG 1 (to 07.02.45). 08.08.44 awarded Ritterkreuz, Staka 1./SG 1. 02.45 attached to a company in 9. SS-Panzerdivision “Hohenstaufen” as a Stuka-Leitoffizier – the Kp.chef was Oskar-Karl Hoffmann, Werner’s brother. 07.02.45 KIA in a Fw 190 F-8 after a hit by Soviet AA while attacking a bridgehead vic Frankfurt/Oder. His remains were never found.

I read:
27.09.41 promo to Lt.
04.08.42 Lt., awarded the Ehrenpokal.
01.03.43 Lt., awarded DKG, 1./St.G. 5.

[AntiqueWW2]

There is absolute nothing wrong at all with it. No idea what should be wrong with the engraving. Also it is a match in my Books. And sorry, Emedals to use as an Expert Opinion is not really a very good Choice.....

[dragnet]

If everything is correct then it comes down to the fact that you where sold an item belonging to one pilot when you where thinking it was another, if you where sold an item that was advertised attributed to a specific person and given an item awarded to another then i myself would presume this would be sufficient for a refund

[Jelle M.]

If everything is correct then it comes down to the fact that you where sold an item belonging to one pilot when you where thinking it was another, if you where sold an item that was advertised attributed to a specific person and given an item awarded to another then i myself would presume this would be sufficient for a refund

How can you discuss attribution when you are talking about the Ehrenpokal? One of the very few German awards that is engraved with rank, name and date.
Yes we have two Werner Hoffmann's, a nightfighter and a stuka. The nightfighter had the rank of 'Hauptmann' when he received the pokal, the stuka one 'Leutnant'.
Both dates are years apart from eachother. No dealer can 'attribute' a pokal, simply because everything is there on the item itself.


Jelle

[dragnet]

How can you discuss attribution when you are talking about the Ehrenpokal? One of the very few German awards that is engraved with rank, name and date.
Yes we have two Werner Hoffmann's, a nightfighter and a stuka. The nightfighter had the rank of 'Hauptmann' when he received the pokal, the stuka one 'Leutnant'.
Both dates are years apart from eachother. No dealer can 'attribute' a pokal, simply because everything is there on the item itself.


Jelle

You might well be correct, now's its down to any evidence to the contrary that might be posted by the thread starter and owner of this item