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Werner Hoffman bad goblet from Scholz Militaria

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    Werner Hoffman bad goblet from Scholz Militaria

    I bought an alpaca honor goblet from Scholz Militaria (Frank Scholz) in 2018. The goblet was presented as that of Werner Hoffman, the RK recipient and nightfighter. There was another Werner Hoffman (stuka pilot) who received the RK , but not the ehrenpokal, so the nightfighter is the only Werner Hoffman that is around.

    I was looking to trade the goblet to Barry Turk for some other things. After Barry received the goblet, he contacted me (after he had the goblet evaluated) and found that the goblet was not Hoffman's and probably had "Werner Hoffman" engraved on it sometime post war. This goblet had been up for sale in 2004 (unknown to me) when Hoffman was alive and still in possession of his actual goblet. There was a thread on WAF about this goblet and warned collectors about it potentially turning up.

    I bought the goblet in 2018 from Frank Scholz, who has a lifetime guarantee for authenticity. I contacted him and he refused to take a return, saying that he did not care what was said by anybody else- the goblet is good and would not take it back!! So much for lifetime guarantee of authenticity.

    Barry is going to send me some very detailed photos of the goblet (particularly the engraving ) before sending it back, which I will post here. Unlike Frank Scholz, I will not pass a dodgy item on anyone and am making things right with Barry (as one would expect of any reasonable person). Buyer beware if considering buying anything from Scholz Militaria, as he will not honor his "guarantee" and you could be stuck with a fake. Below is the message Barry got about the goblet:






    Here is a link to the discussion from 2006 on WAF. It's on pages 4 and 5. Apparently the "seller" was located in Switzerland and provided photos to the buyer, but never actually sent it. Hoffmann was still alive and still had his Goblet in his possession at the time. https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...+goblet&page=5




    Here is Hoffmann's Traces of War record. As you can see, the dates don't match the inscription. https://www.tracesofwar.com/persons/...schwader-5.htm




    There was another Werner Hoffmann in the Luftwaffe, who was a Knight's Cross recipient, but he is not recorded as a Goblet recipient. https://www.tracesofwar.com/persons/...geschwader.htm

    #2
    Can you show some very good pictures of the engraving ?

    Comment


      #3
      Barry Turk is getting me those photos in the next few days. I think that the photos will tell the tale. It is interesting that:

      1. the date on the goblet is wrong for Hoffman

      2. Hoffman had the actual goblet in his possession when this goblet was being sold as his

      3. the other Werner Hoffman never got the ehrenpokal

      It just goes to show that despite "guarantees" and other assurances, there are crooks out there in this hobby. Oddly, I had purchased some high end itmes from this dealer in the past without problem. Getting skinned for $7.5K is not a huge problem, but one would think a dealer would value his reputation more than that. I would certainly think twice before dealing with this guy.

      Comment


        #4
        man what's going on here?

        You are writing and claiming completely wrong things here!

        I am a good friend of Frank and therefore I know exactly because I remember well of this beautiful goblet that you bought! It is the honorary cup of the Stuka pilot Werner Hoffmann!

        Maybe you should take a look at your invoice, is there something about a Night Fighter? Certainly not!

        Of course, received the Stuka Pilot Werner Hoffmann the Honor Goblet on 04.08.1942. Entered in the list of honor on 10.08.1942. And that is exactly the goblet that you have acquired!

        This Traces of War page is very imprecise!

        What you are doing here is business and reputational damage!

        Comment


          #5
          The trophy was even in Frank's personal collection for a while, where I took some pictures of the trophy with my iPhone that I still have.

          Comment


            #6
            engraving look OK from those photos above, not sure what should be wrong with this goblet. Who is Barry Turk anyhow ...
            Last edited by Robert H; 08-13-2020, 05:13 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              Gents,

              based on the pictures, I see nothing wrong with the engraving. Wagner & Sohn (Goblets and Salvers) had a very distinct style to their engraving, the Hoffmann Goblet reflects what I would consider typical of that company.

              Mike

              Comment


                #8
                Without high quality pictures it is completely useless to discuss a matter like this.
                I agree that from the pictures posted by Thomas all looks fine but one these pictures details (like file marks) cannot be seen.
                The lettering looks indeed typical Wagner, with a quality and straight engraving.
                It is most likely that Turk confused the two Werner Hoffmann's with eachother and so making up his mind the goblet is bad.
                Like mentioned by Thomas, the traces of war archive is not always correct. I have noticed that before when researching info about certain soldiers.
                Stuka Werner did indeed receive the pokal and it's not listed in his award list.

                Jelle

                Comment


                  #9
                  Barry Turk is owner of emedals.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Maybe this will help - my "Hoffmann" for comparison

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Alex Bolotnikov View Post
                      Maybe this will help - my "Hoffmann" for comparison
                      Interesting because this engraving is not typical of Wagner Pokal

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Here are the photos.

                        The dates do not match either Werner Hoffman, the Stuka pilot nor the night fighter.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Silver View Post
                          man what's going on here?

                          You are writing and claiming completely wrong things here!

                          I am a good friend of Frank and therefore I know exactly because I remember well of this beautiful goblet that you bought! It is the honorary cup of the Stuka pilot Werner Hoffmann!

                          Maybe you should take a look at your invoice, is there something about a Night Fighter? Certainly not!

                          Of course, received the Stuka Pilot Werner Hoffmann the Honor Goblet on 04.08.1942. Entered in the list of honor on 10.08.1942. And that is exactly the goblet that you have acquired!

                          This Traces of War page is very imprecise!

                          What you are doing here is business and reputational damage!

                          I have bought items in the past from Frank without problem. However, I sent it to Barry for a trade and was told that the goblet is not original for either Werner Hoffman, the Stuka pilot nor the night fighter, as the dates are wrong. They also said the font of the lettering was wrong.

                          I am not an expert by any means on goblets, however, I do trust what Barry and his expert are saying. I would have certainly hoped it was original and was somewhat surprised. Again, I really did not look at the thing in great detail when I got it, as ehrenpokals are not "my thing".

                          Let's see what everyone says about it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by e-maus View Post

                            Interesting because this engraving is not typical of Wagner Pokal
                            Not sure what you mean with that.
                            That is a textbook engraving.


                            Jelle

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hi Jelle
                              the "thickness" and shape of the letters are not what we usually see
                              KR
                              Jacek
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

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