L/10 marked minesweeper

[ben bijker]

Thank you Norm!

So :
- there are more Schickle badges with the cut "splash"
- there are Schickle badges with a gilt reverse.

The paint doesn't react to acetone, which is usually the test for re-paint.

Filing down the swas, striking the L/10 mm, re-gilding and repainting the water seems like an awful lot of work for a relatively cheap badge.

It is not my field of collecting, but I have seen a number of anomalies while collecting iron crosses.

Some things just can't be explained, and a lot of collectors will never regard them as originals because they are not textbook.

[Norm F]

Hi Ben,

Sure, your point is well taken; just because a badge is an anomaly doesn’t automatically mean it’s been messed with.

We have incidences of Mayer and Zimmermann picking up Schickle products in 1941 and marking them with their LDO numbers, so why not others. Mind you, in the case of the members of the Pforzheimer Liefergemeinschaft it makes sense to pick up a fellow Pforzheim maker’s products and there are quite a few examples of this practise. It’s more difficult to conceptualize Deschler over in Dresden picking up a Pforzheim product and if so why aren’t there others? Also, the L/18 and L/52 marks of Mayer and Zimmermann on Schickle products match their marks on their own products whereas we have yet to see that particular L/10 mark like yours on known Deschler products. But low probability doesn’t necessarily mean zero chance.

With regards to finish, the negative acetone test is not that helpful as an indicator of wartime production since all the ‘57 badges and the vast majority of post-war fakes also have acetone-impervious finish, as do all of Staegemeir’s fakes and refinishing jobs.

In the end, without provenance your L/10 “Schickle”, like my L/56 “Schickle”, remains an unexplained anomaly.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[ben bijker]

Exactly.

Although it may no sound logical, it can't be ruled out that Deschler bought some left-over stock or even that Schickle made it for Deschler for re-sale (odd as it may seem)

Deschler was in München, btw.
Not really very far from Pforzheim.

I agree Mayer makes sense, since they were in the same town.

But distance is not always a limitation, have you seen the Mayer crosses with a Mayer -style L//50 mark on the pin?
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=L%2F50+Mayer

Only 5 or 6 known worldwide.
Pforzheim - Berlin over 660 kilometer.

You see, every answer raises new questions.

I didn't know about the paint, learning all the time.

Anbout the splash-over: I have a coastal artillery badge that was in a closet since the war that has the same feature.
And I am 100% sure that wasn't re-painted.

Where are the others?
I really don't know.
There is some rare stuff around, like L/17 ek1 clasps (7 in total, that's all there is) and you L/56 minesweeper isn't common either.

But, I have said it before: IMO a lot of effort to "upgrade" a relatively cheap badge.

[ben bijker]

I forgot to
Mention the L/17 clasps were made by Meybauer

[Norm F]

Although it may not sound logical, it can't be ruled out that Deschler bought some left-over stock or even that Schickle made it for Deschler for re-sale (odd as it may seem)

Deschler was in München, btw.
Not really very far from Pforzheim.

Hi Ben,

My bad, of course München, not Dresden -- 300 km distance instead of 540 km. But even so, I can't see Schickle making it for Deschler, firstly since Schickle was running afoul of the LDO and secondly, if they were to do that why would they finish it differently from their usual custom.

That leaves the sole remaining theory, that Deschler (like Mayer) acquired some of Schickle's leftover stock in 1941, marked it with an L/10 stamp that doesn't appear to have been used on any of their other awards and finished it in a unique manner. Like you say, not logical but can't be ruled out.

About the splash-over: I have a coastal artillery badge that was in a closet since the war that has the same feature.
And I am 100% sure that wasn't re-painted.

But, I have said it before: IMO a lot of effort to "upgrade" a relatively cheap badge.

While it's true that white splash-over is seen on the Schwerin and Assmann minesweepers (both of which have grey reverses), I've never seen that feature on a badge with a gilt reverse and certainly not on a Schickle before.

And while it could be a one-off variant from the Deschler factory having some fun, the degree of effort involved is not a compelling argument in its favour since reproducing and refinishing cheap badges has long been the bread and butter of Staegemeir and his suppliers. Here are four Staegemeir fake KM badges, all with white splash-over and acetone-impervious finish. and also the Schickle-attributed Minesweeper with Staegemeir's fake "1" mark for Deschler. This sort of practise is unfortunately common-place which muddies the water when considering unusual "variants" like the L/10 Minesweeper.

Best regards,
---Norm

[ben bijker]

You haven't seen that on Schickle badges, but you can't rule it out either.
That is one of the problems.

I don't know what it is, but what would be the financial gain on this badge?
Marking it and re-painting it?


Making fakes and selling them makes sense, once you have the die you can start cranking them out.
But, if this is a Staegemeir product: where are the other L/10 badges??

I have come across a lot of things that are hard to explain, but as I already stated: KM badges are not my field of collecting.

[Norm F]

I don't know what it is, but what would be the financial gain on this badge?
Marking it and re-painting it?

Making fakes and selling them makes sense, once you have the die you can start cranking them out.
But, if this is a Staegemeir product: where are the other L/10 badges??

Hi Ben,

I'm not saying that L/10 Minesweeper is a cast fake, and I'm not saying (for sure) that it was refinished; I'm just saying that it's finished in a uniquely atypical manner and that Staegemeir and others over the years were happy to "upgrade" real badges with finish and spurious marks to fetch higher prices.

These are all examples of real KM badges with fake maker marks added.

Cheers,
---Norm

[ben bijker]

Hi Ben,

I'm not saying that L/10 Minesweeper is a cast fake, and I'm not saying (for sure) that it was refinished; I'm just saying that it's finished in a uniquely atypical manner and that Staegemeir and others over the years were happy to "upgrade" real badges with finish and spurious marks to fetch higher prices.

These are all examples of real KM badges with fake maker marks added.

Cheers,
---Norm

Thank you Norm.

So inconclusive, basically.
Badge looks good in hand, but: who knows.

Are you the only one that gets involved in discussions?
over 700 views and no one else comments??

Being an iron cross collector I'm not used to that...

A bit early, but: happy new near!

best regards,
Ben

[Norm F]

Thank you Norm.

Are you the only one that gets involved in discussions?
over 700 views and no one else comments??

Being an iron cross collector I'm not used to that...

A bit early, but: happy new year!

best regards,
Ben

Yes, it’s starting to give me a complex...I seem to have a dampening effect on the discussion.

I’ll back off and give the thread some air.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hi Ben,
I am also Minesweeper variant collector as Norm is but less experienced than he is in this narrow area hence I usually rely on his opinion.
After viewing your additional images my opinion is that your badge is original tombak Schickle badge, type 2.7.4 in the Classificaton system. It obviously features unusual internal cutouts due to misalignment of the trimming die which is interesting and not a big deal at all.
The lack of gilt on the underside of the pin is suspicious and may indicate old refinish job. I have never seen on Schickle minesweepers such splash-overs of the silver finish on the water plum on the reverse but these Schickle’s are almost always silvered on the reverse and several gilded examples are well worn so it looks strange but I cannot tell if this also may also point to refinish.
Regarding the maker’s mark on the pin – this is first time for me to see L/10 mark on KM war badge. What we know is that Deschler did not make any of them. Unfortunately I cannot comment if the mark itself is correct for this maker.
All in all this is nice original badge which looks like unusual one-of variation or it was pimped-up sometime in the past (most likely post war) for some reason. The later is more likely based on information that we have so far but the first option cannot be ruled out.
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

Ben,
Here is 2.7.4 from my collection for comparison. It shows classic trimming and finish for this variant.
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

and here is my 2.7.3 (different catch), it also shows classic finish for tombak Schickle minesweepers.
Cheers,
Hubert

[ben bijker]

Thank you Norm, you must be the specialist in this field.

Hi BubbaZ, tahnks for your contribution and the pictures.

If I compare the wear to the pin it looks quite similar.
The worn spots are dark-grey, same as on my badge.
I can't see any traces of silver however.
So it is grey primer coated with gold.

I am still leaning towards my badge being an oddity.
Hard to prove either way but weird things did happen.

When Schickle lost their license they were not allowed to sell their stock.
But a few years ago I had an ek1 clasp marked L/57 for Boerger.
Apparently the general ideas was that it was a "second model Boerger".
But in fact it was an L/57 marked Schickle...

Odd....

[Norm F]

When Schickle lost their license they were not allowed to sell their stock.
But a few years ago I had an ek1 clasp marked L/57 for Boerger.
Apparently the general ideas was that it was a "second model Boerger".
But in fact it was an L/57 marked Schickle...

Odd....

Hi Ben,

Sure, we know from primary sources (Uniformen-Markt, July 1941) that Schickle's stock was sold off by the IHK Pforzheimer with quality check by the LDO (both organizations were being represented by Arthur Barth of Foerster & Barth), which explains how we see Schickle awards with other makers' LDO marks like the L/18 Minesweeper seen here.

But in all those cases, the LDO number stamps match the stamps used in that maker's other awards -- for example, the "L/18" stamp on the zinc Mayer is the same one used to mark the pin of the leftover Schickle stock.

The difficulty is, that particular "L/10" mark on your Minesweeper is yet to be found on any Deschler product, although you could say the quest continues.

Best regards,
---Norm

[ben bijker]

Thanks Norm!

your points are very valid and clear.

I mixed things up: the L/57 clasp was a Petz & Lorenz clasp.
But according to the books P&L were not allowed to sell their stock.
Obviously that is not true.
Schickle did, I know Schickle ek1 clasps with an L/18 mark.


here's the Mayer made cross, marked L/50

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...0+Mayer&page=2

Only a handful of these exist, and the L/50 mark has nothing in common with the Godet mark.

I am not trying to make a quaetionable item original, but I don't want to throw it out yet because the marking is a-typcal for Deschler.

Regards,
Ben