Unknown destroyer and CA

[Patrick W]

Hi Guys,

These 2 oddities just came in from the same source and I recalled that Giel had had an example of the coastal artillery with striated reverse that he showed previously.

These 2 are clearly from the same maker and no doubt Ludenscheid related- the destroyer is Deumer design and the CA is FLL design.

Has anyone seen this destroyer before?

Many thanks

Patrick

[Patrick W]

,,,,

[Patrick W]

together

[Norm F]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for posting those interesting badges together. Intriguing and indeed a mystery.

Firstly, the Coastal Artillery badge is the second one we've seen posted in the forums, with the FLL obverse design but an unmarked striated reverse with different hardware. Giel posted one of the same type in 2013 (images attached) which he acquired from a huge old collection in Belgium that was about 75% wartime and 25% post-war Lüdenscheid products.

It wasn't clear which category this one fit in. One thought was post-war production possibly from original tooling and utilizing leftover hardware, and the other was a wartime "Muster" of some sort.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I had two concerns about the badge. The first was that Deumer used the same obverse design for their '57 Coastal Artillery (easily recognizable by the "FLL pit flaw" circled in green) and so possibly had access to FLL's wartime tooling, and the other concern was that similar reverse striations can be found later S&L '57 production.

This is not proof of post-war production, but goes to say that it's possible. It's hard to explain why we should see badges using FLL's obverse design without FLL's usual construction methods and reverse hardware and having reverse striations like that.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The Destroyer badge you posted is equally mysterious. It's the Deumer design but again with different reverse hardware. When you show them side-by-side like you did, they look like they originated from the same source which is interesting since both have a potential Deumer connection. It makes you wonder if Deumer or someone else in Lüdenscheid was playing around with original tooling in the 1950's?

Any provenance or story behind these two badges?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Patrick W]

Hi Norm

Thanks for the replies- the 2 badges are certainly from the same common origin- the finishes are very close and setups identical.

They do have a wartime feel to them if that means anything- the striations you show on the 57 badge are very different in appearance. These badges appear to be zinc plated in some kind of nickle or similar and then finished over the top with a good quality finish which has lasted well.

These badges came as part of a very large and old collection here in the UK that has been sold over a couple of auctions recently.

I have also from the same collection a weird Deumer type Luftwaffe flak badge with wide pin reverse that again is seemingly from the same producer- note exact same silver finish with grey over-finish and exact same catch and plate. The pin appears to be a cut down CCC pin and the hinge is adjusted to sit in a slot in the reverse of the badge- not a Deumer trait.

One of these was posted years ago - exactly the same and was quickly passed as a genuine Deumer flak with repaired setup which now clearly is not the case- I will see if I can locate the thread again.

They all appear unworn- just the CA has some deterioration so my guess is someone scooped these up from a common source in Ludenscheid either at war's end or not long after.....

[Norm F]

The Destroyer badge you posted is equally mysterious. It's the Deumer design but again with different reverse hardware. When you show them side-by-side like you did, they look like they originated from the same source which is interesting since both have a potential Deumer connection. It makes you wonder if Deumer or someone else in Lüdenscheid was playing around with original tooling in the 1950's?

When you compare the "Deumer" to Dale's zinc example from a Deumer souvenir board, it appears that the obverse detail is a tad softer, has a different gilding and lacks Deumer's customary darkening of the wave recesses.

They all appear unworn- just the CA has some deterioration so my guess is someone scooped these up from a common source in Ludenscheid either at war's end or not long after.....

Depends on what you mean by "not long after". The Revue article from 1953 suggests Lüdenscheid post-war award production was up and running by then.

Best regards,
---Norm