FLL Coastal Artillery Badge

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Wondering if anyone has ever seen an unmarked CA badge by FLL? All the ones I have on file are marked, and same with the database here at WAF. Also only marked examples are shown in the "Kriegsmarine Awards" books and supplement by Norm and John with no mention of any unmarked examples.

Thanks guys.

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi Tom,

Well there are no accepted "unmarked FLL" Coastal Artillery badges, but there is one mystery badge discussed some time ago which has an obverse identical to the FLL, right down to the "dot flaw" in the gun shield. It's not known if it's wartime or not, but it's very well made -- indeed better than standard FLL production.

This badge was found by Giel in 2013 in a huge collection from an old-timer in Belgium described as containing 80% wartime and 20% post-war badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

Obverse

[Norm F]

Reverse

[Norm F]

At the time, it was mystery why this badge would exist with FLL's obverse but better detail and superior finish to FLL. At the time I speculated the following (and it really was just theorizing with absolutely no proof):

"We know of three production business models during wartime:

1) a firm both designs and produces their badges (for example, early Schwerin and Juncker badges and some of S&L's production)

2) a firm subcontracts their production to another manufacturer (for example, late Schwerin U-Boat clasps made in Gablonz, G.W.L. possibly getting their U-Boats and Destroyers from others)

3) a tool and die firm provides dies to other firms who make the badges (for example Wissmann supplying S&L and others with dies using the same obverse design)

Now consider option number 3. We know of correspondence between S&L and Wissmann who provided some (but not all) of their dies, that in one letter S&L inquired if Wissmann could provide some "Originalmuster" - original samples. It stands to reason that the die producers may produce a few badge samples to show potential customers so they can decide whether to place an order for the tooling.

So what if a Lüdenscheid tool and die maker designs and manufactures a Coastal Artillery badge master die and makes a nice crisply detailed sample from the master to show his potential customers like FLL? It doesn't matter if the reverse is made completely smooth since this isn't an award piece and the customer will eventually customize their own reverse die. FLL says "Great I'll take some dies for this", so the die maker then makes a positive punch from the master and then some working dies from this punch for FLL. These working dies are two steps removed from the master and would be slightly less detailed and also have some small details modified by the hand engraver, but still have the tell-tale "pit flaw".

Et voilà! FLL runs of thousands of copies of their Coastal Artillery badge, but there are only a handful (if even that) of the original samples from the die maker. (Either that or it's a fake...)"

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

catch

[BubbaZ]

Hi Guys,
When I compare this unmarked FLL with my copper plated S&L zincer and marked FLL, then it looks copper plated too.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Norm, thanks very much for the feedback. I really like the look of that one-of-a-kind badge, and as you say it has better detail than the typical FLLs we are familiar with. The reverse hardware is also not what I would expect, especially that catch doesn't seem exactly right for FLL. Interesting example for sure, very nice quality.

Here was the reason for my question, this ground dug CA. Its ground dug, but seems cleaned enough to be able to see the maker mark (whether stamped or raised) but for the life of me I cannot see any trace of a MM. When you Kriegs see this, is there any question in your mind that this is not an FLL? Hardware is typical FLL and the cutouts are also identify it as an FLL. So is the maker mark there but obscured because its ground dug? Or is this an unmarked, unknown badge?

Thanks guys.

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi Tom,

Certainly looks like a typical FLL from the reverse, but of course you need photos of the reverse, closeups of the hardware and closeups of the area of the maker mark to make any further comment. At this point, statistically speaking, I would think that's just a ground-dug marked FLL and we just can't see the mark.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Norm,

I'm afraid there are no better pics available and won't be able to study the reverse any harder to see if there is a stamped MM hiding under the grime.

Can this be anything other than an FLL?

A CCC was also found in this ground dug grouping. Like the CA, the reverse is too grimy to reveal its maker mark, however there is no question its an FLL CCC. The reverse hardware is textbook FLL CCC setup, but admittedly this setup was used by several firms. However, what is unigue to FLL is the downward bend in the pin near the hinge; this is a quirky feature only found with FLL clasps. An additional clue is the long, indented crimps on each side of the backplate; only FLL used these. These two unique features allow us to pinpoint FLL despite the maker mark being covered up. I was hoping we could see enough of the CA to say the same thing about its maker.

Thanks

Tom

[Norm F]

I was hoping we could see enough of the CA to say the same thing about its maker.

Yes we can. It's an FLL and I would say a standard marked version where the mark just can't be seen due to corrosion, just like the CCC.

Here's where to look for the mark.

Best regards,
---norm

[Thomas Durante]

Thanks much Norm, I see it now

I also talked to the original finder and he confirmed that both the CA and the CCCs indeed had the typical FLL makers marks on them.

Tom