Need your opinion on these 3 Submarine War Badge

[overlord06]

Hi,
I would like to know your opinion on these 3 submarine war badges . Are they genuine or fake?
There are so much fake on the market and I want to be 100% sure.

I don't always trust the color , the overall pattern, etc.

Thanks in advance for your time

Badge 1.
A Kriegsmarine Submarine War Badge by "Schwerin"
Description: " early fine quality in fire gilded tombac, measuring 47.36mm x 38.0mm, weighs 20.6 grams, marked Schwerin, Berlin."





Badge 2.
Description: "Gilded tombac, measuring 48.34mm(width) x 38.98mm, weighs 25.4 grams, unmarked but textbook badge by maker Schwerin."





Badge 3.
Description: "by W. Deumer - In feinzink, good gilding and fine details, unmarked, but likely maker is W. Deumer, badge retinas over 90% of original finish."

[Steve Mezey]

2/3

It is tough to judge with those photos but I am not comfortable with the 1st one there are too many red flags for me although it has some positive attributes. Number 2 and 3 I think are good pieces see what others have to say?
Steve

[Norm F]

I agree with Steve. One fake and two originals. This is the fake one (uploading your images).

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

What's really interesting about the fake shown by overlord06 is the Schwerin mark. It's not the standard Schwerin mark and as it turns out, it's the same atypical mark that we've seen in the past stamped into some unmarked Schwerins and into a zinc Deumer. (This mark was discussed in the Schwerin U-Boat classification thread here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...75#post5399875)

It's the proof that the atypical mark (as suspected) is not a second mark from Schwerin but rather a spurious post-war marking which was stamped into the fake and also into some unmarked originals to try to enhance their value.

Best regards,
---Norm

[overlord06]

More info on the red flags

First of all, thank you for your answers, they are very appreciated.


1. Can you tell me some of the red flags on the first one? I think one of the red flag is one of the branch of the svastika (the lowest). A other one could be the small pin on the reverse: the rivet seem to be put on the wrong side (by the left) Am I right?


2. Can you tell me the numbers/names of the variant of the second and third badge. Are they really from Schwerin (Badge 2) and from Deumer (Badge 3)?

I ve made some research on the forum, but no perfect match at this point to find the right variantes for badge 2 & 3.

Thanks

[Norm F]

1. Can you tell me some of the red flags on the first one? I think one of the red flag is one of the branch of the svastika (the lowest). A other one could be the small pin on the reverse: the rivet seem to be put on the wrong side (by the left) Am I right?

Hi overlord06,

Yes, but there's more than that. You have to go through the same exercise we all do -- make side-by-side comparisons of the fake with a known original and stare at the details to familiarize yourself with the numerous small differences. There are many originals on this forum to use for comparisons. Also look at the details of the hardware closeups and again compare to originals, both on the forum and in the reference books. Since every fake is different, you have to go through such comparisons for every badge you see until you are comfortable with the process.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

2. Can you tell me the numbers/names of the variant of the second and third badge. Are they really from Schwerin (Badge 2) and from Deumer (Badge 3)?

I ve made some research on the forum, but no perfect match at this point to find the right variantes for badge 2 & 3.

Thanks

The unmarked Schwerin is UC# 1.1.5 in the comprehensive U-Boat Classification system (or Type 3.1 in the old Schwerin classification) and the unmarked Deumer zincer is UC# 1.3.2.

Best regards,
---Norm

[overlord06]

I understand that the classification is based ,in part, on the reverse of the badge ( the pin, the rivet, etc.).

But I notice some small differences between the eagles' heads and Uboats. I am referring to the badge number 2 of my first post and the picture of the badge on the forum (model 3.1 old Schwerin classification or new classification 1.1.5.)

Same thing for the badge number 3, the Deumer 1.3.2 : I can't find a perfect match for the eagle head and Uboat and with the same reverse.

Is this normal? Thanks

[Norm F]

I understand that the classification is based ,in part, on the reverse of the badge ( the pin, the rivet, etc.).

But I notice some small differences between the eagles' heads and Uboats. I am referring to the badge number 2 of my first post and the picture of the badge on the forum (model 3.1 old Schwerin classification or new classification 1.1.5.)

Hi overlord06,

Correct, some of the sub-types of Schwerin are defined by the reverse hardware used. Types 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3 (UC # 1.1.5, 1.1.6 and 1.1.7) differ only by the type of hinge pin used (see attached).

Regarding the outlines, whether it was because the U-Boat was the earliest of Schwerin's KM badges or because of the intricacies of the cutouts around the eagle's head, deck gun and flag, we see variability in the hand finishing of the cutouts in these areas throughout the Schwerin U-Boat timeline.

It's because of this hand finishing that you see minor differences, especially in the shape of the outline of the eagle's head, between your example and the ones in the timeline thread. In contrast, the simple outlines of the cutout under the sub and the inner and outer margins of the wreath are very uniform -- the result of a standard trimming stamp with reproducible outcomes in those areas.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Same thing for the badge number 3, the Deumer 1.3.2 : I can't find a perfect match for the eagle head and Uboat and with the same reverse.

The Deumer, on the other hand, is quite consistent between examples, but perhaps you were comparing the non-cutout variant to the cutout variant which is why you saw differences? Also, the angle of the photograph may show the head contours a little differently.

These, of course, are later production than the Tombak Schwerin badges and utilize a much more consistent trimming method around the eagle head and U-Boat features. UC# 1.3.1 (non-cutout) usually has the faded finish while UC# 1.3.2 with the additional cutouts in the swastika and deck gun has the "premium" gilding.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Back to the weird "Schwerin" in the opening post, here's a comparison of the hardware to some originals.

Very unnatural "wear" give the hinge and catch a soft appearance with indistinct margins. The central barrel and the hinge pin are both wrong. The interior margins of the wreath were ground down, taking off part of the hinge block in the process.

I suppose it could have been an original that was heavily messed with, but that would mean removing the main pin, sanding all surfaces, grinding down all the interior margins (damaging the hinge), smoothing the edges of the catch, replacing the central barrel of the hinge and the hinge pin and touching up the areas of the solder with a gold-coloured finish (not to mention stamping in a spurious "Schwerin" mark). That's a pretty tall order with a lot of work for no good reason...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Comparing the wonky "Schwerin" to the correct unmarked Schwerin from the same vendor again highlights the aberrant characteristics.

[overlord06]

Comparing the wonky "Schwerin" to the correct unmarked Schwerin from the same vendor again highlights the aberrant characteristics.

I understand more with these informations.
Thank you Norm, its very appreciate!