Help! Kleinkampfverbände clasp

[Mike Kenny]

The hardware is imo post-war Austrian.

Here it is on a post-WW2 (post-1960) genuine Austrian Pilot's badge with original "spoon-bill" pin, rather sharpened like on the fake.

Regards
Mike

[Blitzbundeln]

That's this one that passed through the hands of several prominent dealers before ending up in a private collection. (These are both photos of the same badge and the colour of the larger image is off due to the artificial lighting and bad photography.)

Hi Norm,

Was that the one auctioned about 2003?

Greetz,
Blitz

[Norm F]

That's this one that passed through the hands of several prominent dealers before ending up in a private collection. (These are both photos of the same badge and the colour of the larger image is off due to the artificial lighting and bad photography.)

Hi Norm,

Was that the one auctioned about 2003?

Greetz,
Blitz

Hi Blitz,

These are the two separate examples in this thread -- the one I just posted was first posted in 2012 on GCA (from Germany) and the other one is from the opening post here in 2015 (from François' friend's grandfather in France?). These are definitely two different clasps from the same source.

Did you mean to post images with your last post that never came through?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Blitzbundeln]

Hi Norm,

I mean the clasp with the smooth vin. The only one that is considered as original. In 2003 in Germany there was a big auction from a collector, I thought Lindenau was his name. A few prototype badges were sold there e.g. a navy close combat clasp. At that time I spoke to Weitze, Hartung, Niemann, Nimmergut etc. and they told me about these badges. Unfortuneatly I was too late for the navy badge but aquired an other prototype badge from the air force. Does it ring a bell?

Greetz,
Blitz

[Ludwig]

It was sold at Carsten Zeige Auktionen.

[Blitzbundeln]

Hi Ludwig,

Thx for your reply. Step by step we can solve the history from some rare badges.

Greetz,
Blitz

[Ludwig]

[Norm F]

I mean the clasp with the smooth vin. The only one that is considered as original. In 2003 in Germany there was a big auction from a collector, I thought Lindenau was his name. A few prototype badges were sold there e.g. a navy close combat clasp. At that time I spoke to Weitze, Hartung, Niemann, Nimmergut etc. and they told me about these badges. Unfortuneatly I was too late for the navy badge but aquired an other prototype badge from the air force. Does it ring a bell?

Hi Blitz,

Yes, as Ludwig mentioned, the one you're talking about is the one sold in 2004 by Carsten Zeige. The same photos have been posted several times on several forums and here they are again with some quotes from old threads.

From 2002:

This is the only genuine example of a metal Kleinkampfmittelverband Clasp I know of in existence. Note that the fins to the sawfish are plain, not ribbed like the 1957 version, which is basically what these maker marked pieces tend to be-reworked 57 pieces.

Photo Copyright Detlev Niemann
This piece had provenance right back to its original owner. Ottfried Neubecker, the man who designed it, so was presumably a test sample.

Gordon

From 2009:

I held that lovely little badge in my hand when Carsten Zeige had it in his auction in 2004. I bid on quite a few items but not that one and it was sold for €2800 + 23% commission.

Lothar Hartung bought it and had it in his July 2004 list priced at €7800.

It was a big mistake not to have bought it at the auction when I had the chance.

Stan

These are the photos mentioned in the quotes by Gordon and Stan, and they are of the same badge. The artificial lighting made the Niemann photos look more coppery, but the other photo shows a silvery colour. At any rate, there's only one of these, not "a few" as far as we know. (And of course this has nothing to do with the cast fakes which were the topic of this thread other than to provide a basis for comparison.)

In my view, it's a much nicer design of the swordfish than what we see in the '57-era design.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Blitzbundeln]

Hi Norm,

Thx for your extensive answer. I visited Lothar Hartung a few times and we discussed the badges. Now I have the prototype LW panzer badge. I/we should have bought them all together then.

Greetz,
Blitz

[Norm F]

Just came across this fake Imperial navy zeppelin pilot's badge with the same reverse setup as the fake Kleinkampfverbände clasp.

Best regards,
---Norm

[dcollect]

another one for the fake gallery ??

[Norm F]

another one for the fake gallery ??

That's a Souval, circa 1960's. They sometimes have the L/58 stamp like this one posted by Patryk previously in the 1957 forum.

Best regards,
---Norm