Help! Kleinkampfverbände clasp

[Fenet]

Hi.

Can someone help me identifying a badge of brass or alike, which looks like a combat claspe and represents either a dolphin or a swordfish turned to the left over some rope knots?

A friend of mine got this badge from his grand father who went in occupation in Kiel circa 45/46.
The construction looks typically german, no markings, nor eagle, nor swastika.

And I cannot find out how to include the photo here ... sorry.

Cheers to all,

François.

[Thomas Bendixen]

Hi François, it sounds like the small battle units badge, very rare if original. I have sent you a PM with my e-mail, if you send me the photos I will post them for you.

KR. Thomas

[Thomas Bendixen]

Hi François

This indeed is, in my opinion, a cast copy of the above mentioned badge. I have never seen one that was bellieved to be original, only a photo and your badge dosen't show the same details

Lets hear what the other members has to say.

KR. Thomas

[Fenet]

Thanks Thomas.

I have no personnal opinion on the piece itself, beside that this guy has it from his grand father who was a french sailor with the occupation forces in Kiel just after the war.....

This gentlemen has also a few other souvenirs, and is NOT himself a collector ... the reason he asked me to identify it.

Eagerly waiting to read other members opinions.

Cheers to all.

[Norm F]

Hi François,

Like Thomas said, it's the Kleinkampfverbände clasp. There is no evidence that any of these were manufactured before the end of the war. There is only one example known that is thought to be an original sample piece. That's this one that passed through the hands of several prominent dealers before ending up in a private collection. (These are both photos of the same badge and the colour of the larger image is off due to the artificial lighting and bad photography.)

This image was accompanied by the following statement by Gordon Williamson in a past thread: "This piece had provenance right back to its original owner. Ottfried Neubecker, the man who designed it, so was presumably a test sample." Other than that, we know nothing else about the provenance of this purported original.

All others are considered post-war reproductions and several varieties can be seen in this thread:
Fakes of the Kleinkampfverbände Clasp

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I would say François' friend's badge is the same type of repro as the "Juncker"-marked example in post #16 of the other thread, but with more imaginative reverse hardware.

After that, one can debate the definition of a "fake" as it applies to clasps made in the early post-war period to satisfy a demand from veterans who may have qualified for the award. That's easier to defend in the case of a Marine-Frontspange for which a fair number of people qualified, but it's hard to say if anyone even qualified for a Kleinkampfverbände clasp...and even so it shouldn't have a spurious maker mark applied to it. That's why most examples are just considered junk, except the ones from S&L and Souval post-1957 that are of interest only to collectors of '57-era production.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Fenet]

I do agree Norm.

In your opinion, considering my friend's story, could it had been mede immediatly post war to be worn by a german sailor?

How much could it be worth?

[Norm F]

In your opinion, considering my friend's story, could it had been mede immediatly post war to be worn by a german sailor?

How much could it be worth?

Hi François,

I was editing my post at the same time you were posting your questions, so I think you'll find the answers there.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Fenet]

Agree with you Norm.

The fact is that my friend's piece has no maker's mark, so the intention to make a junk fake for the collectors market is not so evident. Considering the good engraving of the face, it should had been easy for the maker to add a fakle marking behind like ALL the fakes shown on the post.

Also I trust the story of my friend ... andI was just asking for a quotation by pure curiosity as the badge is not for sale ...

[Norm F]

The fact is that my friend's piece has no maker's mark, so the intention to make a junk fake for the collectors market is not so evident. Considering the good engraving of the face, it should had been easy for the maker to add a fake marking behind like ALL the fakes shown on the post.

Also I trust the story of my friend ... and I was just asking for a quotation by pure curiosity as the badge is not for sale ...

Hi François,

The fake maker marks didn't have to be applied at the time they were made -- could have been added later to "increase the value".

The badge could well have been made in the early post-war period, but the fact remains a fair quantity were produced in good quality metal despite the fact that there wasn't an economically viable legitimate veteran market for this particular award. That leaves gullible occupying forces and the collector market as the clientele in the late 1940's and 1950's. As such, the value is low in my opinion...that of a novelty item.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Fenet]

Thank you very much for your expertise and all your comments Norm.
This is probably a souvenir bought in Kiel after the war, my friend will be disappointed for sure ...

He also has a Marine Spange or what I saw. Beeing not an expert in the KM and german badges authentification,with your parmission, I will send you some photos if I can, to know if it is a good one or not.

Thanks again and cheers,

François.

[Martin W]

With that reverse set up i have to say one of the more interesting examples of this award that i have seen,and yes,probably postwar ?

Francois,i would certainly like to see images of the "Marine Spange" you mentioned above.

Just for the sake of interest.

Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

Just noticed another clasp with this same setup was posted in another forum a few years ago. I think the closeups show it's definitely a cast reproduction.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

.

[Norm F]

Clearly visible casting line in this view. And casting pits on the obverse.