Hilfskreuzer for review

[amiklic1]

Hi!

I am looking at this badge, so before I decide I'd like other's opinion about it:

[Norm F]

Hi Andjelo,

Looks like a nice original Juncker with good finish on the obverse, but it's really strange what happened to the reverse finish. There is still nice finish around the hinge and the catch but someone scraped the rest of the reverse. I wonder if maybe it had been personalized in some manner by its owner and then they tried to scrape off all those markings again, removing the gilding in the process?

A good badge though.

Best regards,
---Norm

[amiklic1]

I guess we'll never know.

[BubbaZ]

I agree, nice Juncker AC.
Cheers,
Hubert

[JAndrew]

Hello all,
Personally I would never buy a badge with the characteristics I have circled. I do a lot of casting work and these are very typical of the finger prints of a casting using an RTV mold that has not been properly prepared.
Yes, the hardware looks period but to me how "period" the hardware and rivets may look depends on how much effort one wants to put into reproducing it but it is reproducible.
I might be too stringent, perhaps I am passing up good badges but it is what I feel comfortable with at present. Just my humble opinion.
JAndrew

[amiklic1]

Thanks JAndrew. I spotted some of those imperfections, but haven't got time to compare to other Juncker pieces.

What I am interested in is the reason why we see so many Juncker tombac ACs.
Was it a hoard find or? Every dealer has at least one, and all are mint or close to that ;-).

[Mike Kenny]

Maybe a timely reminder, but as we are specifically talking Juncker attributed badges it should be pointed out that a lot of their badges do appear to be cast (die cast) rather than die-struck. Have a look at the reverse of some of their LW badge wreaths - imo no way can a lot of the features seen on 100% genuine examples be a product of die-striking.

Regards
Mike

[Oscar]

Andjelo,

Please wait for another example, they are available around. Just my two cents.

[amiklic1]

Andjelo,

Please wait for another example, they are available around. Just my two cents.

I agree with you.

I am looking for a Schwerin one, also, in tombac and marked, but those are extremely expensive these days, even if they are not that rare.

[BubbaZ]

Whether die cast or die struck this one just screems "Juncker". IMHO it is genuine wartime Juncker product.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Whether die cast or die struck this one just screams "Juncker". IMHO it is genuine wartime Juncker product.
Cheers,
Hubert

I agree.

Best regards,
---Norm

[JAndrew]

Here is a quick example of what can be done and why I am probably over skeptical of some badges.

About 10 years ago I was working on framing some photos of U-Boat captains and wanted to add the U-Boat spange to the frames. A very good friend of mine makes jewelry as a hobby. He's one of those guys you see at flea markets selling his stuff he makes. He is good at what he does and so I asked him to make me some spange in metal as I only work in resin. Mind you this guy knows absolutely nothing about military stuff, in fact he's an old Hippy who still wears a peace sign around his neck. So I gave him a fake spange I had to work with on a Saturday and the next weekend this is what he handed me.

He had weathered it, used different metals like he found on the one I gave him for the badge, pin and hook and silver plated the pin. The only thing he did different was use a brass pin for the hinge in stead of steel. He misunderstood that I only needed the obverse. My bad.

Again, he knows nothing about German badges. He just took a master and made an exact copy. In a week with RTV molds and hand tools. Think about it.
JAndrew

[Norm F]

Hi JAndrew,

Very interesting. It would have been great to see what your friend's copy would have looked like if you had given him an original to copy instead of a reproduction.

At any rate, when you consider the look of the Auxiliary Cruiser in question and the finish and the hardware, the combination of these three parameters still indicate an original to me.

Best regards,
---Norm

[JAndrew]

Norm,

I thought about using an original but I had visions of the bubbled areas of finish coming off with the mold material.

As far as the badge in question, as I said in the earlier post I fully admit that I may be passing on good badges and I respect your opinion as well as Hubert's and others here. So when our opinions differ I certainly take it to heart and try to discern why. However, having seen the differences between items cast in machined metal molds vs. cast metal molds vs. RTV molds I have to stay with what I am comfortable with. I've had more than one badge or medal that was blessed by many that in later years was shown to be bad. But even the best of earlier intentions did not put the money back in my pocket.

JAndrew

[John R.]

I agree with you.

I am looking for a Schwerin one, also, in tombac and marked, but those are extremely expensive these days, even if they are not that rare.

Couple points, I think the SB auxiliary cruiser badge is fairly rare. We are seeing them show up now, but they are coming out of collections and going into collections, like the nice one that was obtained at the Pomona, California show by Giel, but at any one time, how many can you find for sale? Not too long ago, say 9-10 years, you could not find them at all. I just think some collectors are getting older and are selling since they do not want their families to have to deal with sales after they are gone. At least, that is part of the reason maybe.


I like better conditioned Junckers also of course, fine badges.

I am not sure a personalized badge was worked on here or somebody since 1942 tried to buff it up and recondition it in some misguided attempt at restoration.

In any case, this badge is a period example.

Lastly, the perfect fake is probably not out there. I say probably since if it was a perfect fake, we could not tell the difference.

I agree, with effort, a decent reproduction can be made from an original example, and it is a problem at a show for example.

On the forum, we can do side by sides and blow those images up to the size of our computer screen. The faker is not trying to fake us or might not even care about this forum. He is trying to pawn it off on some other dealer or collector.

If a collector feels that this is not true, then every badge is suspect and this is not the right collecting field for that collector.

I actually think our area is easier than paper forgers, art forgers, ancient ceramics forgers, etc, etc. I am not expert in these last named areas, but have read enough about the frauds and fakers who inhabit those worlds.

We are lucky in comparison since, as Norm indicated, we deal with finishes, hardware, small details that only the most dedicated badge collectors care about and that group would include most of the KM badge collectors here.

I would not worry about somebody in his garage getting it exactly right to make a score on a Juncker AC badge or any other KM badge really.

I have been challenged on this position by Steve Wolfe in that he feels that there are fakes out there, even in the KM area, that are almost perfect or perfect. My only response is to post that fake so we can study it. Naturally, a big dealer might know where the perfect fake came from one way or the other, and that would have to be part of the discussion, even if obliquely. Otherwise, you could post a period badge, say it was made by Joe Jones in his basement in Dry Springs, Texas, and claim it was a perfect fake.

Jeff V was there when Steve and Jeff and I and few others were have lunch together and the subject of fakes came up.

I am not talking about any other part of the TR collecting "minefield", just KM badges and KM/HJ tallies, the areas that I collect.

To me, this is part of the hobby and not a bad part either, since it forces us to really understand what we are looking at. We have come a long way in the last 10 years and I think that progress has actually made KM badges safer than ever before to collect.

Again, if one does not agree, I see no logical reason they would collect these artifacts and move on to something else.

John