bullion minesweeper

[schwelch]

Hi guys,

a friend of mine has this bullion minesweeper badge in his collection and would like to sell it. Now there are some opinions in an other forum, that it's not original.
May I please have your opinions about it?
Thanks in advance!!!

BR
Sven

[Patrick W]

IMO it is a period version made in Italy.

[Tom Yanacek]

Hi Sven,

For me it is a fake. Way too bizarre-looking to even stand a chance IMO.

Best regards,
Tom

[greg1878]

Hi Sven, as you know these are difficult to authenticate, not one for me though.
Best - Greg

[Norm F]

IMO it is a period version made in Italy.

Hi Patrick,

As interesting as that sounds, such an opinion requires a presentation of evidence, images and reasoning to have any meaning whatsoever. Please elaborate.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Antikium]

I think this piece for a copy, the previously known pieces I have another front and especially back on!
Foreign manufacture by the minesweeper badge whether in cloth or metal, I am very skeptical about!

Best Regards
Myrca

[Patrick W]

Hi Norm

Apologies, I was expecting at least some positive comments on this piece but as i am the only one liking it currently, here is why I believe it to be Italian.

- The style of embroidery used in particular the U shaped segments of the eagle's wings is very typical of period Italian bullion embroidery. This style has been observed on Italian SS officers sleeve eagles and I have also seen it on Italian made KM eagles.

- The red tongue of the eagle is again typical of Italian made birds of all branches of service.

- The backing material isn't a problem for me as you find this gauze material on wartime cloth DK's and here it is on an Italian bullion eagle also.

- The blue thread for the sea is a typical feature of the known wartime bullion minesweepers so a German made one may well have been the working model used.

- I also like the toning of the bullion

[Patrick W]

,,,,,

[Patrick W]

////

[John R.]

Just when Norm thought his collection was complete. Even maybes have to be obtained.

John

[Norm F]

Just when Norm thought his collection was complete. Even maybes have to be obtained.

John

True, I'm biased towards Minesweepers, but I wouldn't add a one-off "maybe" on no evidence.

But I am interested in further research and discussion along the lines of Patrick's theory.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

These bullion/cloth examples are hard pressed to prove themselves. So many makers and Patrick's evidence with the red tongued Italian examples is more than most can provide.

John

[Norm F]

...here is why I believe it to be Italian.

- The style of embroidery used in particular the U shaped segments of the eagle's wings is very typical of period Italian bullion embroidery. This style has been observed on Italian SS officers sleeve eagles and I have also seen it on Italian made KM eagles.

- The red tongue of the eagle is again typical of Italian made birds of all branches of service.

- The backing material isn't a problem for me as you find this gauze material on wartime cloth DK's and here it is on an Italian bullion eagle also.

- The blue thread for the sea is a typical feature of the known wartime bullion minesweepers so a German made one may well have been the working model used.

- I also like the toning of the bullion

Thanks Patrick. Interesting theory. There are four classes of evidence we seek to support claims of authenticity - period descriptions, photos in wear, provenance and construction. Unfortunately we have nothing in the first two categories. The previous discussion on "German-made" bullion Minesweepers included some provenance and elements of construction providing some support for the type illustrated in that thread. For this different type, without provenance all we have is construction. I agree with Myrca and Tom, that the aesthetic and construction are not what associate (so far) with German hand-made production, but when you invoke the possibility of a foreign arena then it remains a possibility.

I like your observations about the red tongue, blue thread and bullion toning. I tried to blow up your photos of the Italian bullion eagle with U-shaped wing segments, and it does seem aesthetically similar to eagle in question, albeit with a different style of embroidery.

I'm still not keen on the backing but I have no knowledge or experience with Italian pieces, and couldn't yet find anything similar in the Italian sub-forum. I'd like to see more Italian (universally accepted) pieces showing similar material and backing to support this interesting theory.

Of course some may argue about what is the likelihood of bullion badges being made outside Germany, but I think we can all agree bullion badges were non-regulation anyway and private purchase vanity items for the most part.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Italian eagle from an Italian reference book (previously posted by Nick) and a modern fake of the same. Doesn't help us much, just shows that U-shaped bullion is seen in both eras.