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    #1

    Late war auxiliary cruiser

    Hi Guys

    This one just came in with some other badges- nothing special to look at but this type seems to be very scarce indeed, I could only find one posted in the past.
    Has this been attributed to a maker? The design is the same as the F&B but less dished in the reverse.

    Thanks

    Patrick
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    #2
    ,,,
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      #3
      Hi Patrick

      Yes, that's the so-called "unmarked F&B design" Hilfskreuzer. There's an example on page 504 of "The Kriegsmarine Awards", volume I. As you say, the reverse is less scooped than the marked F&B's and interesting they also vary in the amount of scooping of the reverse.

      Although they're often referred to as the "unmarked F&B" these needle-pin setup badges are actually not from the same die but rather from a sister die to the marked F&B. Both the F&B and this one have a distinctive "blob" flaw in the swastika, but on the needle pin badges the blob is consistently in a slightly different position than on the marked F&B badges (see the attached comparisons).

      The setup is very much like the Rettenmaier-attributed Hilfskreuzer, but the "Rettenmaier" lacks the blob flaw and has variable hand-trimmed margins.

      Best regards,
      ---Norm
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Norm F; 01-11-2014, 09:48 AM.

      Comment

        #4
        Martin W. is always a great source of Hilfskreuzer info and images. Here are two of his badges compared -- the "F&B design" on the left and the "Rettenmaier-attributed" on the right. These two use the same obverse design but the "Rettenmaier" has a flat back, hand-finished margins and no "blob" flaw. Nevertheless the shared design, hardware and style of gilding suggest a shared source for tooling and materials in late wartime.

        Best regards,
        ---Norm
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          #5
          Although the Rettenmaier-attributed "flatbacks" usually have the oval catch plate, occasionally they use the same round catch plate that is used on the unmarked "F&B design" badges, so one has to look a little closer when distinguishing them.

          B.H. Mayer used the same obverse design as well, so this obverse design is more appropriately called the "Pforzheim design" than the "F&B design". Nevertheless, the similar "blob" flaw is what warrants the name "F&B design" for the particular badges in question, in contrast to the more general term of the shared "Pforzheim design".

          Best regards,
          ---Norm
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            #6
            Great information, many thanks Norm!

            Comment

              #7
              Nice job Norm, I´m more clever now.

              Comment

                #8
                Nice badge Patrick.

                A keeper for sure in my area of collecting.

                Not much that i can add to Norm's comments except that i still think the needle pin "dishback" variants still maybe a product of Foerster & Barth.

                The "blob" aside there are certain features on these "dishback" badges that are hard to illustrate photographically but if you have the badges in hand it is very convincing to me under magnification.

                I need to try and do some high resolution images to explain my point at a later date.

                Regards,Martin.
                Last edited by Martin W; 01-11-2014, 10:39 PM.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Martin W View Post
                  Not much that i can add to Norm's comments except that i still think the needle pin "dishback" variants still may be a product of Foerster & Barth.

                  The "blob" aside there are certain features on these "dishback" badges that are hard to illustrate photographically but if you have the badges in hand it is very convincing to me under magnification.

                  I need to try and do some high resolution images to explain my point at a later date.

                  Regards,Martin.
                  Hi Martin,

                  I fully agree that F&B is the front-runner as the maker of these needle pin variants. Clearly from an almost identical sister die to F&B's, suggesting the two dies were made from the same master "punch" but resulting in slightly different morphology of the "blob".

                  We can't rule out the lesser probability that someone else used that second die, but certainly F&B is the likely candidate. This is further supported by the presence of unmarked needle-pin variants of the distinctive F&B U-Boat, complete with similar striations on the reverse to the marked versions and similar finish (two such examples posted here). The implication is that by the end of the war, F&B was slapping on a variety of available hardware which perhaps makes sense given the heavy bombing of Pforzheim and disruption of supply lines.

                  The term "F&B design" rather than "unmarked F&B" just seemed appropriately non-committal while still suggesting the likely candidate, but I'm fine with either term. The real clincher would be to find a "cross-over" variant combining the wide pin setup with the slightly different blob from the needle-pin variety. It may very well be out there waiting to be posted...

                  Best regards,
                  ---Norm
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                    #10
                    I agree, nice F&B design AC badge
                    Here is mine.
                    Cheers,
                    Hubert
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                      Hi Martin,

                      I fully agree that F&B is the front-runner as the maker of these needle pin variants. Clearly from an almost identical sister die to F&B's, suggesting the two dies were made from the same master "punch" but resulting in slightly different morphology of the "blob".


                      The term "F&B design" rather than "unmarked F&B" just seemed appropriately non-committal while still suggesting the likely candidate, but I'm fine with either term.

                      Best regards,
                      ---Norm
                      I'm fine with either term too Norm.

                      As always, your comments are noted and appreciated.

                      Thanks for you input.

                      Regards,Martin.

                      Comment

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