Petz & Lorenz destroyer

[BubbaZ]

Hi Norm,
Thanks for bringing up that thread I forgot about it
One way or another the circles must be a result of faulty production process and not flawed dies.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

One way or another the circles must be a result of faulty production process and not flawed dies.
Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

Yes, here are four more examples, and it can be seen that there are differences between them indicating a slightly variable process. Interesting that these four seem to fall into two categories, ie. the first two resemble each other and the next two resemble each other. Maybe it depends on the setup of a vaulting vice or press of some sort and that setup varies slightly between production runs?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Brian S]

Wondering... So much great research accomplished on this site. I just got my first P&L SCiS. Unmarked, of course... So what was the Rosetta Stone for Petz & Lorenz. Obviously the catch and pin and hinge are all unique to this maker but how do we know it's P&L?

[Norm F]

Wondering... So much great research accomplished on this site. I just got my first P&L SCiS. Unmarked, of course... So what was the Rosetta Stone for Petz & Lorenz. Obviously the catch and pin and hinge are all unique to this maker but how do we know it's P&L?

Hi Brian,

The "Rosetta Stone" was the P&L early wartime catalog showing the U-Boat, Destroyer and Minesweeper (and Spanish Cross too). That led to a constellation of other consistent observations including finishing techniques and reverse setups that fit together like the pieces in a puzzle as described in this thread:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=505655

Best regards,
---Norm

[Brian S]

You did a great job on that Norm. It should be somewhere where it's always easy to find! P&L wasn't on the top of my list for SC's. The finish on the Gold/Silver is thin. But, like Otto Schickle they are not common.

City of manufacture?

Per Gordon; "Firms who failed to follow regulations could be and indeed on occasion did have their manufacturing licenses withdrawn (Petz and Lorenz and Otto Schickle of Pforzheim being two examples)."

IMHO makes the P&L and Schickle pieces highly collectible due to their extremely early manufacture. But you have to appreciate that due to the light light silver/gilt...

[steve owens]

Very Nice Badge Sven, Im Going To Buy Myself A One.

[Norm F]

City of manufacture?

Per Gordon; "Firms who failed to follow regulations could be and indeed on occasion did have their manufacturing licenses withdrawn (Petz and Lorenz and Otto Schickle of Pforzheim being two examples)."

IMHO makes the P&L and Schickle pieces highly collectible due to their extremely early manufacture. But you have to appreciate that due to the light light silver/gilt...

Hi Brian,

P&L was actually located in Unterreichenbach, just 15 km outside of Pforzheim.

The Spanish Cross was instituted April 14, 1939 and P&L was barred by the PK in July, 1941 so they had a little over 2 years to produce their Spanish Crosses.

The Spanish Cross is an easy one to connect to the P&L catalog since it's unique among Spanish Crosses, being the only one with a swastika which is solid rather than having the arms cut out. Therefore it's quite recognizable in the catalog.

Likewise the Destroyer is an easy connect to the catalog due to the distinctive production flaw mentioned earlier in the thread.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Looking a little further, here are two variants of reverse setup on the P&L Spanish Cross -- the first matches the P&L Sport badge with the flattened main pin while the second matches a variant of the P&L Destroyer (Jan Arne's badge).

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

And then there's the P&L U-Boat badge. Again unmarked, but it's an exact match to the P&L catalog and shares the same two setup variations seen on the Spanish Cross. As discussed in other threads, a unique feature of the P&L Tombak U-Boat is they are usually completely coated in a silvered layer prior to the gilding.

[Norm F]

And finally the P&L Minesweeper, again a good match to the catalog. This is a common obverse design used by other makers as well, but not only does the reverse setup here match the P&L Destroyer but also these Minesweepers have the same unique feature as the U-Boat badges - the only Tombak Minesweepers to receive a silvered undercoating to the entire badge before gilding.

[Norm F]

I'll add this thread to the "Useful Threads" pinned topic as Brian suggested. For reference here again is the August 1st, 1941 notice from the Präsidialkanzlei barring P&L from further production of 3rd Reich awards.

Translation: "The Minister of State and Chief of the Presidential Chancellery of the Führer, with immediate effect prohibits the firm of Petz & Lorenz, Unterreichenbach (Württemberg) from the production and marketing of medals and decorations which were founded after the 30th of January, 1933, and their miniatures, as well as the production of corresponding dies. The firm is further forbidden the manufacture and distribution of combined miniatures in which orders and medals of the prescribed type are included, as well as the production and distribution of medal bars of any kind which, in whole or in part, contains ribbons of the aforementioned Orders and Decorations. Whoever still makes products of the type mentioned from the company Petz & Lorenz will make themselves liable to prosecution.
The permission for the firm of Petz & Lorenz to sell off their remaining inventory of the above-mentioned type, through the mediation of the LDO for quality assurance and separating out of improper pieces, had to be provisionally withdrawn after it was determined that the company, against the communicated decision, is still sending their product catalog to their client firms, which in several instances lists improper wares."

So the time periods of P&L's KM badge production were:
1) U-Boat - date of institution October 13, 1939 - 21 months
2) Destroyer - date of institution June 4, 1940 - 14 months
3) Minesweeper - date of institution August 31, 1940 - 11 months

Best regards,
---Norm

[Brian S]

SC clasp

[Brian S]

Hinge

[Norm F]

SC clasp

Wow, that's an unusual catch isn't it? Wire bent into the same shape as the more typical spiral stamped sheet metal catch. Is there a discussion thread in the Cross section on this variant?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Brian S]

No. Seems like this is the best place for this photo. Badge is a perfect P&L. And as you say, catch is a variant.