S Boat Finish

[münster]

Hi

I like this badge but before I pick it up I would like opinions on the finish, I think it is in order and like the overlap on reverse and the bare spots on wreath where you can see bare zink peeking through.

Best
Dion

[JAndrew]

Dion,
To use the terminology that seems to be the best way to describe these kind of badges : It is compatable with wartime manufacture.

Personally I like RS pieces but have to admit it is a mine field of unanswered questions as far as when things might have been assembled and when were they finished and if war time pieces were refinished at some point to dress them up for post war sale.

But if I needed an example of one of these for my collection (which I don't) and if the catch details were to my liking (which I cannot tell from these photos) I would not mind this one if the price was right.

JAndrew

[beufighter]

souvals are more like a minefield on top of a minefield with a nuc in the middle the finish looks from these pictures to have just worn off but weather or not thats a good finish ill leave to the experts but i personally don't have anything to do with souval

[Nordmark]

No finish left on the boat, full finish on the wreath. How is that possible?

[beufighter]

just curious but was this brought from kai i seem to remember him having a fair few R.S refinished badges

[münster]

just curious but was this brought from kai i seem to remember him having a fair few R.S refinished badges

No lol, I do not buy from Kai and I sure hope if I did he would supply me with better pics . it is from a local estate clearer where I live. There is also a Coastal Arty from the same estate. I have not purchased it yet.

[Norm F]

just curious but was this brought from kai i seem to remember him having a fair few R.S refinished badges

The Souvals from Kai Winkler's site are a bit different and were discussed here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=681568

As discussed in that thread and the other one linked within it, I think those badges with the black paint were finished circa 1970's. The one Dion shows with the grey paint on the central feature I would speculate is likely a bit earlier, but in the end all we can say is the usual caveat for Souval:
"Wartime compatible" hardware and time of assembly/finish unknown -- statistically likely to be post-war finishing of wartime leftovers. Souval was selling "wartime compatible" zincers for 30 years or so after the war vs. 3 years during the war, and these badges seem pretty common compared to all the other 2nd pattern S-Boat makers.

Still, there had to be some made and worn in wartime (like the ground-dug example from Swinemünde previously posted by Hubert). They're still no-doubt collectible, but in my opinion the price point should depend on what you're willing to pay for a probably post-war product surrounded by an unresolvable controversy. I collect Minesweeper variants so I have four Souval Minesweepers, one or two of which may have been wartime finished but no way of knowing so I would never represent them as wartime produced.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Here is my wartime RS mentioned by Norm. Unfortunately no finish left.
Cheers,
Hubert

[beufighter]

The Souvals from Kai Winkler's site are a bit different and were discussed here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=681568

As discussed in that thread and the other one linked within it, I think those badges with the black paint were finished circa 1970's. The one Dion shows with the grey paint on the central feature I would speculate is likely a bit earlier, but in the end all we can say is the usual caveat for Souval:
"Wartime compatible" hardware and time of assembly/finish unknown -- statistically likely to be post-war finishing of wartime leftovers. Souval was selling "wartime compatible" zincers for 30 years or so after the war vs. 3 years during the war, and these badges seem pretty common compared to all the other 2nd pattern S-Boat makers.

Still, there had to be some made and worn in wartime (like the ground-dug example from Swinemünde previously posted by Hubert). They're still no-doubt collectible, but in my opinion the price point should depend on what you're willing to pay for a probably post-war product surrounded by an unresolvable controversy. I collect Minesweeper variants so I have four Souval Minesweepers, one or two of which may have been wartime finished but no way of knowing so I would never represent them as wartime produced.

Best regards,
---Norm

thanks Norm

[Norm F]

Here is my wartime RS mentioned by Norm. Unfortunately no finish left.
Cheers,
Hubert

Thanks for posting your badge again Hubert.

As one can see, absolutely the same construction as the badge posted by Dion (and countless others) aside from the round-wire catch vs. the flat-wire catch, both of which were used by Souval. The key difference here is an ironclad history of the circumstances in which it was found. With Souval production before circa 1970, there's no other way to tell.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here also is a Souval Minesweeper badge with a decent provenance previously posted by Chris (90th Light) which is described by Chris as "some images of my 100% war-time example. This one came directly from a NZ soldier who got it some where near Trieste in 1945."

The faded finish is very similar to that seen on one of my Souval Minesweepers with a different "question mark"-shaped wire catch (attached for comparison). Does that mean my example is more likely to be wartime as well? Maybe, but I really couldn't say since my example could just as well be early post-war before Souval changed the type of finish. The maker mark and raised outline for the hinge on Chris' badge sit higher up on the reverse than on my example. The elusive Souval...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Because of the badges in the previous post, when it comes the Souval S-Boat, the ones I like the best are with the faded finish like this one. This one has also had the sharp end of the pin cut off which makes sense for a badge that was actually worn since those long pointy pins on Souval badges aren't very practical in wear. Not definitive in the absence of provenance, but it gives as good an impression as you can get from a Souval. Certainly no one's ever tried to pretty it up.

[Norm F]

So finally now back to the badge posted by Dion at the top of the thread. Could it be the same "vintage" as the badge with faded finish but with a post-war "refreshment" of the wreath? Certainly could be...and I guess that's all one can say.

Best regards,
---Norm