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Auxillary cruiser badges and the "Level 3" Schwerin

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    #31
    Originally posted by Norm F View Post
    I don't have clear enough photos of any Level 3 zincer to see if any of them have the typical sail die flaw that you expect on the Tombak and Level 1 and 2 zinc versions.
    On second look, I did find a Level 3 badge with enough detail to show the sail flaw. Previously posted here:
    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=371249

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
    Attached Files

    Comment

      #32
      Here's another observation of "Level 3" zincers. Most of them (but not Tony's) have surprisingly similar markings on the reverse that appear to have been caused by the trimming stamp used on the internal cutouts.

      These rough marks are absent from the "Level 2" zincers which show the more typical uniformly depressed margins caused by the trimming stamp. Is this difference in the "Level 3" badges from damage to the trimming stamp in late wartime, or a different trimming stamp or from something more sinister like a common casting?

      So far, I find these "Level 3" badges a bit of a mystery -- somewhat less detail, different trimming features and a cruder globe from a different base metal than "earlier" versions.

      We have two unanswered questions before us:
      1) Are "Level 3" zincers, as a general rule, legitimate Schwerin-made late wartime products or not?
      2) Is Tony's "Level 3" a typical "Level 3" or a copy of a "Level 3"?

      Martin, I think it's time for you to acquire several of these and study them further!

      Best regards,
      ---Norm
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #33
        Originally posted by Norm F View Post

        Martin, I think it's time for you to acquire several of these and study them further!

        Best regards,
        ---Norm
        Sorry Norm,

        i do not buy HK awards anymore.The prices have gone through the roof,especially Schwerin's.

        Besides,your studies on most awards are wonderful.

        However,if a nice piece is offered to me privately,i might go for it.There are still a couple of variants out there that i am looking for,but no hurry.

        I do like Tony's L/21 marked badge that he posted at the start of the thread.

        I'm still looking for one of those L/21 marked pieces.





        Cheers mate,Martin.

        Comment

          #34
          "I do like Tony's L/21 marked badge that he posted at the start of the thread.

          I'm still looking for one of those L/21 marked pieces."

          Aren't we all!

          JAndrew

          Comment

            #35
            Originally posted by Norm F View Post
            So far, I find these "Level 3" badges a bit of a mystery -- somewhat less detail, different trimming features and a cruder globe from a different base metal than "earlier" versions.

            We have two unanswered questions before us:
            1) Are "Level 3" zincers, as a general rule, legitimate Schwerin-made late wartime products or not?
            2) Is Tony's "Level 3" a typical "Level 3" or a copy of a "Level 3"?
            Hi Guys,

            Two more postings pertinent to this discussion.

            Firstly, with regards to the first question quoted above, here's the reverse of a "Level 3" previously posted by Rob Hudspith with the rare darkened silver reverse finish. This type of finish is rare on these Schwerin Auxiliary Cruiser badges although seen quite commonly on other Schwerin zinc badges.

            This badge looks classic for Schwerin production, and I can't help but suspect that Schwerin likely did indeed make "Level 3" zincers with Tombak globes in late wartime.

            Best regards,
            ---Norm
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Norm F; 10-03-2013, 01:46 PM.

            Comment

              #36
              Originally posted by Norm F View Post
              We have two unanswered questions before us:
              1) Are "Level 3" zincers, as a general rule, legitimate Schwerin-made late wartime products or not?
              2) Is Tony's "Level 3" a typical "Level 3" or a copy of a "Level 3"?
              With regards to the second question, I found this old thread from 2007 discussing a badge very much like Tony's but with a "split" hinge and post-war finish.
              http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=244609
              The discussion on this one was equally divided just like the discussion here, but tended towards reproduction in the end, mainly because of the posted dimensions which were very much like Tony's.

              Still not definitive, but it's possible that there are some good fakes of the "Level 3" zincers with the faded "c" that haven't been able to reproduce Schwerin's finish.

              Best regards,
              ---Norm
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #37
                As long as all parties don´t use the same calibrated measuring devices, the whole discussion regarding the dimensions of a badge is totally useless...

                Comment

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Nordmark View Post
                  As long as all parties don´t use the same calibrated measuring devices, the whole discussion regarding the dimensions of a badge is totally useless...
                  My measurements are made using a dial caliper used for precision measurements by gunsmiths and machinists. Accurate to 0.001 of an inch.

                  The scale used is a multi function electronic one accurate to 0.001 of a gram. This scale has functions to also measure in grains and pennyweights.

                  Not atomic level accuracy but close enough for our purposes.

                  All the best.

                  Tony
                  An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

                  "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

                  Comment

                    #39
                    In the interest of furthering our collective knowledge about this Schwerin badge I'm willing to send it to either Norm or Martin so they can look at it 'in hand'.

                    Norm or Martin, if that's a possibilty please pm me with a maiking address and I'll send it along.

                    Tony
                    An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

                    "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Tiger 1 View Post
                      My measurements are made using a dial caliper used for precision measurements by gunsmiths and machinists. Accurate to 0.001 of an inch.

                      The scale used is a multi function electronic one accurate to 0.001 of a gram. This scale has functions to also measure in grains and pennyweights.

                      Not atomic level accuracy but close enough for our purposes.

                      All the best.

                      Tony

                      Super job, Tony. But did Skora and Weber (or their contributing authors/collectors) use the same tool?

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Nordmark View Post
                        Super job, Tony. But did Skora and Weber (or their contributing authors/collectors) use the same tool?
                        Accurate calipers and scales are readily available. Even the cheap ones measure to 0.01 of an inch. The same tool wouldn't be necessary.

                        Tony
                        An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

                        "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

                        Comment

                          #42
                          I think we are trying too hard to make a problem for ourselves in this case. Tabulated weights and measurements are just tools to consider and not in themselves the final factor in judging these old badges. There had to be variation in period badges no matter how good the QA process was during the war, especially late in the war.

                          I also feel that the data tables in the KM Awards are there to help guide collectors with approximate measurements and it must be understood that to get the correct height and width is difficult no matter what tool you are using. This is due the fact the the badges are not rectangles or circles.

                          I think Tony has a period badge and there is no overriding reason to suspect it is a fake. It probably has been cleaned along the way like so many other badges. Not a big deal.

                          The globe is not a great fit but this might very well be a late war production piece and these badges lost a fair amount of quality as time went on--I think we see that with SB across the board in their zinc examples--generally speaking.

                          The badge posted by Norm of Rob's badge I think was mine once, later sold to Rob. I bought it from Mike.

                          Tony, there is no way I would consider that badge a post war piece and in my opinion, you should not either. To speculate on it based on the evidence presented so far as being post war is a stretch IMO.

                          John

                          Comment

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Nordmark View Post
                            Super job, Tony. But did Skora and Weber (or their contributing authors/collectors) use the same tool?
                            Numerous tools were used for the data tables--often, individual collectors provided the information so to answer your question, there was no central receiving station that measured and weighed each badge. Far from it.

                            However, if provided data was way off from the data bases we had compiled, we asked for the collector to redo the measurements or provided better instructions to them. Sometimes the collectors did send us the badges and in those cases, the same tools were used.

                            In the end, no badge statistics were made up or extrapolated. The exact final measurements provided by the collector or by our own measuring instruments were utilized.

                            John

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Originally posted by John Robinson View Post
                              The globe is not a great fit but this might very well be a late war production piece and these badges lost a fair amount of quality as time went on--I think we see that with SB across the board in their zinc examples--generally speaking.
                              Hi John,

                              While I agree that the quality of Schwerin zincers suffered over time, the nice original "Level 3" with the silvered back (Rob's or yours originally?) in post #35 shows still very good quality.

                              But as mentioned, some zincers with the "Level 3" maker mark and non-aluminum globe look quite strange. Here's a very strange one. Unfortunately no obverse view but the reverse is the typical "Level 3" maker mark reverse, but with a strange finish and a reverse setup typical for S&L's late war and early post-war products. I don't think we've ever seen any original Schwerin with this setup before, so some controversy continues to dog some of these Level 3 zincers in my view.

                              Best regards,
                              ---Norm
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Norm F; 10-04-2013, 02:24 PM.

                              Comment

                                #45
                                And here are a couple of more views of the odd one in post #36 with the easily acetone-soluble finish and atypical hollow hinge block. Another very strange "Level 3".
                                Attached Files

                                Comment

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