HELP kriegmarine badge

[tranchant]

hello my friends
i have a good opinion on this kriegmarine badge , i have buy to the soon of a french veteran!but expert can you confirm?
what do you think pleased?
thank for your time
best regards
^patrick

[Norm F]

Hi Patrick,

The photos are small and not clear but it looks like it may be an example by the so-called "unknown flatback" maker and whether late wartime or early post-war is unknown. However, this type is also sometimes referred to as the "unmarked F&B-design" because of the close similarity to the known F&B badges but with a different setup and finish. But the flatback maker always used the same obverse designs as the Pforzheim makers for the KM badges so there's currently no hard proof either way (F&B or the flatback maker) as to who made these Auxiliary Cruiser badges.

At this time there's still more unknown than known about these badges. Having said all that, I think you would want much better photos anyway with good closeups of the hardware and the badge margins since the texture looks a little odd on these photos and you never know who will be Staegemeir's "next victim".

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's a thread on the more "conventional" flatback Auxiliary Cruiser.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581938

These are different from the "F&B-design" badges in that the they lack the "blob" flaw that is usually seen in the swastika of the "F&B-design" examples. There's a "blob" flaw in marked F&B badges the blob is in a slightly different position. (Maybe more than you wanted to know! )

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here are Martin W.'s great photos of his true F&B Hilfskreuzer on the left compared with the "F&B-design" unmarked badge on the right. You can see the "blob flaw" in the stem of the lower arm of the swastika, but as mentioned the flaw is slightly shifted in position and these seem to come from sister die sets, not the same die?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

And here are comparisons showing the subtle difference in the blob flaw between the true F&B badges and the unmarked needle-pin "F&B-design" badges.

[Norm F]

And here's another example of the "F&B-design" needle-pin badge but with an atypical finish. (This was previously posted by RichardT.) The unusual finish is yet another puzzling feature to these mysterious badges.

[Martin W]

At this time there's still more unknown than known about these badges. Having said all that, I think you would want much better photos anyway with good closeups of the hardware and the badge margins since the texture looks a little odd on these photos and you never know who will be Staegemeir's "next victim".

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,

i agree that better images would help here,but i like what i see so far.

It could be one of the "F&B needle type variants".

Perhaps a little optimism on my behalf but i still like to think that these needle pin badges with the "blob flaw" on the swastika are a product of F&B ?

I am sure that they are period made pieces also.

Here is another example i picked up recently.When compared in hand with the known F&B examples,marked or unmarked,it is hard to think otherewise,even though we have no "solid "evidence.

Regads,Martin.

[Norm F]

Perhaps a little optimism on my behalf but i still like to think that these needle pin badges with the "blob flaw" on the swastika are a product of F&B ?

Regads,Martin.

Hi Martin,

Could very well be. But it's very puzzling that the blob is consistently in a slightly different position in the needle-pin versions versus the wide pin version. Maybe two different die stations for the two different versions?

If we consider other F&B KM badges, it's also interesting that the U-Boat badge of the F&B design is also found with some some needle pin variants -- again always unmarked which I guess is not surprising since the L/21 mark was usually embedded in the wide pins rather than the body of the badge. But the needle-pin variety has diagonal striations on the reverse of the badge whereas the marked versions don't.

In the case of the Minesweeper badges, there aren't needle-pin variants but the "later" unmarked wide-pin versions again have striations on the reverse.

So did F&B produce "premium" smooth surfaced L/21 versions and also "basic" striated surface unmarked versions, perhaps at a different price point? Or is there more to this story we just don't know at this time?

(Badges of the flatback maker (?Rettenmaier) also often have striations on the reverse, but like you, I'm tending to separate those out from these "F&B-like" badges.)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's another example of this type of badge, but with a somewhat less convincing finish and brighter silver globe? Why so many versions, or is it just repainted?

[Martin W]

(Badges of the flatback maker (?Rettenmaier) also often have striations on the reverse, but like you, I'm tending to separate those out from these "F&B-like" badges.)

Best regards,
---Norm

This is what i also think Norm.

Here is a compare of two F&B's along with the only flatback example of the HK award that i have in my collection.

IMO the two F&B's were struck from the same dies,or at least sister dies.

The flatback on the right was struck from a totally different set of dies,i think.

Regards,Martin.

[Martin W]

Here's another example of this type of badge, but with a somewhat less convincing finish and brighter silver globe? Why so many versions, or is it just repainted?

I think the obverse has been repainted on this one Norm ?

Most examples of this needle pin variant that i know of have a dark/blackened globe.

Regards,Martin.

[tranchant]

km badge

hello
thank you very mutch for your post and your time NORM and MARTIN, you are a BIBLE in KM!, i am not a collector in km badges , my speciality daggers, sabels,and political medals and badges,i want sale this badge and i cannot sale a fake!
i think now that i have a good badge?
best regards
patrick

[colt45s]

my U -Boat badge is needle pin and all silver, did they have silver then?