Auxiliary cruiser badge

[frazzo75]

I would like an opinion on this badge which I've been offered for a reasonable price. I've searched the threads on this forum and it looks like a S&L made two pieces AC badge. Badge and pin seem to be OK, but what about the riveted globe? Is it a post war assembly or a genuine one? I can't tell exactly because I'm no real expert. Otherwise the badge has a nice patina and it's in good condition. Rivet is hollow type, with quite regular shape. I've taken some pics and I hope they're clear enough for the experts here: just let me know if you want more.

Thanks in advance for your qualified opinions

Alessandro

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7h5G6lm5D-ODvn22Zxw3BElPUQok5VMADM6Byw1rjBA?feat=embedwebsit e"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dsSbzDop2mg/UCEU0C8deQI/AAAAAAAAADQ/B618cDXctRo/s800/IMG_0076.JPG" height="534" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/116900934500532522157/07Agosto201202?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNPaxqGq7r yeiQE&feat=embedwebsite">07 agosto 2012</a></td></tr></table>


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[BubbaZ]

Hi Alessandro,
The globe and the rivet on your badge look postwar to me but on the other hand wear pattern looks like it was worn on the uniform...
I enclose my S&L HK for comparison - it has wartime globe and the rivet.
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

more pics

[frazzo75]

more pics of globe and hollow rivet

Bubbaz: the globe looks a bit different on the edges too, which 'match' a bit less closely with the wreath of the badge. I'm puzzled too by the wear and the patina of the badge: they're consistent with a wartime worn example, but who knows...

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-TKANXhTf6w46F9Ked_MBUlPUQok5VMADM6Byw1rjBA?feat=em bedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pwqtah5mchY/UCE3gPdfhKI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/sE4ySQtDGSo/s800/IMG_0073%2520%25282%2529.JPG" height="530" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/116900934500532522157/07Agosto201202?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNPaxqGq7r yeiQE&feat=embedwebsite">07 agosto 2012</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-kfWStgld9P19K8K-M6xiElPUQok5VMADM6Byw1rjBA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QcpEhw67Phc/UCE3gGave2I/AAAAAAAAAEo/YBHi4IoqapE/s800/IMG_0098.JPG" height="800" width="614" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/116900934500532522157/07Agosto201202?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNPaxqGq7r yeiQE&feat=embedwebsite">07 agosto 2012</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qbGKF8UVXmwb3dGIS_284klPUQok5VMADM6Byw1rjBA?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J1YlpbVREY8/UCE3dQlKT5I/AAAAAAAAAEI/BUz2ruDu9WI/s800/IMG_0104.JPG" height="575" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/116900934500532522157/07Agosto201202?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNPaxqGq7r yeiQE&feat=embedwebsite">07 agosto 2012</a></td></tr></table>

[BubbaZ]

Hi again,
Thanks for the closeups. As said before this is 2nd type globe seen on postwar awards and Hero's fakes, the rivet looks postwar as well.
So this might be a postwar assembled badge from wartime leftover wreath and postwar globe for souvenir market and wore as such hence the wear pattern?
Cheers,
Hubert

[Martin W]

Alessandro,

as Hubert has mentioned this is what is refered to as a second type globe that is found on post war S&L HK awards.It is also found on the 1957 type HK award produced by S&L.

It has the "wider" lines of longitude and latitude on the globe,where as the period types had "narrower" lines.

If you look at Hubert's example you can see these narrow lines on the globe and also the rivet is domed and slighty recessed,a good period indicator IMO.

This type of globe with the "wider" lines has also been copied on Staegemeir fakes,but in this case i beleive the badge you posted is a postwar assembled Steinhauer & Luck piece.

The "hollow" rivet is also a good indication of postwar S&L production.It is found on S&L 57ers and from what we know it is not found on any S&L HK award that is considered period.

Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

I'd just add to the previous descriptions that the coarser post-war Type 2 globe is made of Tombak and is non-magnetic vs. the wartime Type 1 globe which is ferrous.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Martin W]

I'd just add to the previous descriptions that the coarser post-war Type 2 globe is made of Tombak and is non-magnetic vs. the wartime Type 1 globe which is ferrous.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,

i have two S&L HK's with the first type globe.They are both badges that i consider to be of period construction by S&L.

The reverse set up's and rivets are also what we consider "period".

However,the globes on these these badges are non-ferrous.

So, the first type globe can be found with both ferrous and non-ferrous marerials that were used in it's construction,IMO.



Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

So, the first type globe can be found with both ferrous and non-ferrous marerials that were used in it's construction,IMO.

Regards,Martin.

Thanks for that clarification, Martin.

But would you agree that the "Type 2" appears only in non-ferrous metal?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Martin W]

Thanks for that clarification, Martin.

But would you agree that the "Type 2" appears only in non-ferrous metal?

Best regards,
---Norm

Absolutely Norm.

I have five S&L awards in my collection with the second type globe. Two of these pieces are the 57er type and the other three are what i consider to be of postwar production or assembly.

The globes on all of these badges are non-ferrous.

So now the question is,when did S&L change from the use of a non-ferrous to a ferrous type of metal on the globes on their badges of "period" production ??

One would think that the badges with the non-ferrous globe were of the earliest production ??

Hard to say.

Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

One would think that the badges with the non-ferrous globe were of the earliest production ??

Hard to say.

Regards,Martin.

Hi Martin,

But all of S&L's '57 badge production was in Tombak so it makes sense that the post-war Type 2 was non-ferrous and is further evidence that the Type 2 globe was not an early post-war product but rather a much later add-on, produced to combine with their zinc leftover stock for the veteran and collector markets.

As to the ferrous and non-ferrous subtypes of the Type 1 globe, indeed it's hard to be sure but like you say one would think that the Tombak would be earlier than the ferrous. The Auxiliary Cruiser badge was introduced in April, 1941 - right at the cusp of the changeover to zinc production - so perhaps they started with Tombak globes at that time and then quickly changed over to the cheaper material.

Best regards,
---Norm

[frazzo75]

I must say thank you to all who helped with the correct identification of this badge. Every knowledgeable contribution to this post was a great deal of information.

Alessandro