Unknown U-Boat ?

[Frank Heukemes]

KVK1X with same pin:

[Frank Heukemes]

While this pin looks more like Christian´s (the flatter, not semi round type):

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Guys,

Great looking U-boat Badges, and that Spanish Cross as well. I have never seen that type of U-boat Badge nor Spanish Cross before. That simple type of hinge reminds me of the type used by the maker, Dr.Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid, on their Infantry Assault Badges. (Marked 'FCL' in a circle or 'L/65'.) I wonder if there is a connection?
Best regards! Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Nice KVKI's too!

[Philippe DB]

Dear Frank,


Thanks for posting these pictures. The SC looks like it is made out of bronze and the KVK's might well be made out of te white metall used to make the U-boots. Certainly on the first one you posted I can't see any yellow buntmetall coming through on the worn area's.

John your correct in relation to the hinges on FCL IAB working by the same principle. However these are later zink badges with a crimped in hinge. All the badges shown in this thread are early made IMO.

It's nice to see more badges with the same set-up but personaly I still don't have a clue towards a possible maker.

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

I followed up on this for a while (because I own the bronze SC, which was vet´s son acquired with more stuff of the owner) and also discussed it with Jacques Calero. These SCs (and the other badges with this pin setup) are Meybauer related. In fact, there is even a known SC of this kind with an L/13 marking:

[Frank Heukemes]

Some things are unique about these SCs, such as a swastika disc, which is significantly bigger in diameter than for most other makers.

[Frank Heukemes]

The more known Meybauer SCs share this big disc design, although they have some arms of the little swastikas cut out, not solid (from the collection of Jacques):

[Frank Heukemes]

There was a German article by Harald Geissler suggesting these badges were made by Petz & Lorenz (a non officially licensed maker), because one item was found in paper bag with this maker´s name. Geissler also has proof that some of these badges (there are also EKs and 1st pattern wound badges with this setup, and don´t forget the SA sports badges, although these are made by a variety of makers) are vetaran acquired. He is of the opinion that there is no reason to assume these badges are postwar creations.
But I think the Meybauer link cannot be denied in addition to that (Geissler did not make that connection when the article was written).

Here is another example, a one piece EK from the collection of George Stimson:

[Philippe DB]

Dear Frank,

Many thanks for all the additional research and pics

I find the Paul Meybauer trace very plausible certainly after seeing the pin on Jacques silver SC. The left pin tip clearly received the same treatment as the pin on my U-Boat. Slightly filled away to make it corner the huge catch a bit more easy.

Already when looking at Gordon's site in an effort to link the badge to a known maker, PM certainly was a possibility. However I was thrown of a bit by the buntmetall example he featured on his site

http://www.btinternet.com/~gordonwil...egsmarine2.htm

Only just now I see that Gordon states that that badge is marked L/18.

Gordon is that badge just misplaced on your site by accident or is it marked L/13? And if it is indeed an L18 do you know of the existance of buntmetall Meybauer U-Boats?

Anyway although very close in general design of the zinker these broadpin U-boats couldn't have come out of the same die as the zinkers. But than again suppose that wouldn't be a problem because the zinkers might have been produced on a reworked or new die.

KR
Philippe

[Mike Kenny]

I followed up on this for a while (because I own the bronze SC, which was vet´s son acquired with more stuff of the owner) and also discussed it with Jacques Calero. These SCs (and the other badges with this pin setup) are Meybauer related. In fact, there is even a known SC of this kind with an L/13 marking:

Hi,

First up, I'm not doubting that this hinge/pin/catch construction on SCs, EKs, etc is not period - I don't own any but I personally like their construction and hearing about the odd example straight from a German veteran is always good (keeping in mind that even then they may still be early post-war period replacement pieces). Like others, I think this unusual (SA Sports-badge type) hinge/pin/catch construction indicates pre- to very early war manufacture.

From what I've seen in this thread wrt maker though, I think that is still way up in the air. Stating that all of these badges ARE Meybauer related based on one example with an L/13 mark is too much for me in this particular instance. Tne reasons being;

1) Comparison between Jacque's SC and Frank's SC to me indicates that everything came from separate dies - the main part of the cross (ie arms, swords), the central medallion and the eagles all exhibit different obverse die charactersitics between the two types of L/13 marked crosses.

2) Look at where the eagles sit in the sword arms - the "unknown" cross eagles (on both the L/13 marked silver cross and Frank's bronze example) are almost sitting on the sword-hilts whereas Jacque's more "typical" Meybauer cross eagles are much closer to the center - to me that indicates either the cross arms on the "unknown" cross are smaller or the eagles are much bigger.

3) Combine that with the non-standard (radically different!) pre-war Meybauer hinge/pin/catch system (which can be found on SCs and early to mid war EK1s and KVK1s before the change to a more "coke-bottle" style on at least some EK1s) and ....

4) a different maker mark (both markings appear to be clearly struck but those L/13 markings are not the same, even from the fuzzy silver cross image - compare the distance of the straight 1 to the upper and lower curved parts on the 3 - on the typical Meybauer the distance is almost the same) ...

and I think that the Meybauer link can be strongly denied (at least for the L/13 marked Spanish Cross comparison in this thread), although not entirely ruled out. Unless of course we're talking two totally different sets of dies being used synchronously post-41 (LDO marking) for an award finalised in 1939? At present and wrt the L/13 Silver SpanX with the atypical hinge/pin/catch, I'm going to revert to the "probably genuine badge, probably bogus marking" stance.

Further, compare the U-boat badges above to L/13 Meybauers (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=L%2F13+u-boat) - imo they have similar but definitely different obverse die characteristics as well. And before anyone says it - granted, the L/13 marked U-boat badges don't have a "typical" pre-war Meybauer hinge/pin/catch system so it's not a be-all and end-all defining Meybauer attribute (post-39 anyway)!

Regards
Mike K

PS: Nice looking U-boat badges at the top of the thread too!

[Gordon Williamson]

Dear Frank,

Only just now I see that Gordon states that that badge is marked L/18.

Gordon is that badge just misplaced on your site by accident or is it marked L/13? And if it is indeed an L18 do you know of the existance of buntmetall Meybauer U-Boats?

It's a typo on the site. The Tombak badge shown is an L/13 Meybauer, not an L/18. It's the Teichert badge referred to in the link posted by Mike.
Unfortunately I am unable to make several corrections/updates I need to do on the website because I upgraded my account from dial-up to broadband, the website is under the old account which is no longer valid so I can't even access it to take it down. I am in the process over the next few days of migrating everything to a new web-hosting service unconnected to my ISP so it will have a permanent home even if I later change to another ISP. Once the new site is up it will have several changes and lots of new images.

[Philippe DB]

Thanks Gordon. Without wanting to attribute the U-Boat to any maker it's at least interesting to see that the Teichert badge features a flat pin which is already very uncommon. Gordon what is the Teichert badge made of, colored or white base metal?

And I agree with Mike, that's why I started this thread because I wasn't able to link the U-boat that started this thread to any known maker. Very close but no cigar.

However based upon the way the pin tip on the L/13 SC is cut and assuming the mm is not added post-war, we at least have an interesting lead to follow.

KR
Philippe

[Gordon Williamson]

The Teichert badge is Tombak.

[George Stimson]

"Here is another example, a one piece EK from the collection of George Stimson:"

Hey! I own that KVK (the one with the case), too!