Zimmerman U-Boat & Petz and Lorenz Minesweeper find

[Norm F]

Thare are many discussions about that on the forums but IMO more likely is that Mayer and Zimmerman did not make any tombak KM awards and these very few known pieces marked for these makers rather come from Schickle's stocks sale.
Cheers,
Hubert

First of all, fantastic badges! Great character and history and nice early production.

Secondly, I agree with Hubert about the probable makers (Schickle U-Boat and P&L Minesweeper) although certainly the L/52-marked U-Boat examples passed through the hands of Zimmermann as well.

Aside from the rare L/52 stamped U-Boat examples, Zimmermann was not a known maker of KM badges. Meanwhile we know for a fact that Zimmermann marked Schickle products with his L/52 as proven by the double-marked Spanish Cross stamped both L/15 by Schickle and L/52 by Zimmermann (attached). Also, the L/52 stamped Schickle SWB tells the same story. The U-Boats are clearly pictured in Schickle's catalog so that attribution is clear as well.

So there's no really good reason to ascribe the unmarked versions to Zimmermann (nor Mayer) -- just a historical tendency in the hobby based upon the few L/52 marked examples before further research in the last few years. It's really quite interesting that both of these badges are from the early makers (Schickle and P&L) both of whom were driven out of the market in mid-1941.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Aside from the rare L/52 stamped U-Boat examples, Zimmermann was not a known maker of KM badges.
---Norm

Norm and Hubert,

The fact remains that you cannot say Zimmerman was not a known maker of U-boat badges when we have the badges marked by Zimmerman. This does not make much sense unless trying to fit it into a new theory of who made this badge and ignoring the fact that Zimmerman did make at least one KM badge--and who knows how many more, we just do not know based on what we have seen so far.

In hand, I have found the Schickle U-boat badge to lack the "feel" of the Zimmerman and Mayer badges. Of course, without you having the ability to inspect in hand this badge (the Schickle), it is hard to go much further than telling you it is different. I guess I would describe it as a nice badge but lightweight in some ways--naturally, you could say that is explained away by normal manufacturing variations while I might say it is hand in hand with why Schickle lost its contract.

Since the few marked examples by Zimmerman have 4 cutout legs, that is why we put all fully cutout leg examples into the Zimmerman camp. I am not saying it is 100% a Zimmerman, but I also do not ascribe to the theory that any unmarked badge is 100% assigned to a particular maker.

I personally will stick with the Zimmerman classification since unlike so many badges that we have absolutely no evidence of who made them but still assign them to a maker based on assumed geographical production, we have the Zimmerman U-boats that are actually marked.

Back to the badge at the top, great grouping and if the badge is the same as the one in the photo, and I have no reason to doubt the story of the family by the way, great find.

John

[Varsity]

Thanks to all for your kind comments and additional information!
Much appreciated!

Jim

[Norm F]

...
In hand, I have found the Schickle U-boat badge to lack the "feel" of the Zimmerman and Mayer badges. Of course, without you having the ability to inspect in hand this badge (the Schickle), it is hard to go much further than telling you it is different. I guess I would describe it as a nice badge but lightweight in some ways--naturally, you could say that is explained away by normal manufacturing variations while I might say it is hand in hand with why Schickle lost its contract.

Since the few marked examples by Zimmerman have 4 cutout legs, that is why we put all fully cutout leg examples into the Zimmerman camp. I am not saying it is 100% a Zimmerman, but I also do not ascribe to the theory that any unmarked badge is 100% assigned to a particular maker.
...

Hi John,

Like you say, normal manufacturing variations can account for the weight differences. I have two Schickle-design Minesweepers with the same setup that differ in weight by almost 10 grams. The thickness was all over the map with these products. The same differences can be seen in the Juncker Tombak U-Boats so that in itself wasn't sufficient grounds to be frozen out by the PK.

It remains an indisputable fact that Zimmermann stamped their L/52 mark into Schickle-produced SWBs and Spanish Crosses, and we wouldn't dream of saying the unmarked versions of those were produced by Zimmermann. Why the U-Boats (which are pictured in Schickle's catalog) should be any different I can't see.

I'm fine with calling the unmarked badges "Schickle-design" rather than "Schickle" given the small element of doubt, but to call them "Zimmermann" or "Mayer" is also incorrect and misleading. And for now, the best description for the few L/52 and L/18 stamped examples in my view is "Schickle-design, marked by Zimmermann" or "Schickle-design, marked by Mayer" in both cases for the private purchase market.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

What about the fact that the Schickle examples of the U-boat have a completely different hardware setup?

If the theory is correct, then we would see that one with the long pin hinge stamped with a Zimmerman mark.

John

[Norm F]

What about the fact that the Schickle examples of the U-boat have a completely different hardware setup?

If the theory is correct, then we would see that one with the long pin hinge stamped with a Zimmerman mark.

John

Hi John,

You're referring to the round-wire pin setup with typical round-topped stamped sheet metal catch (attached). My point is that is just one type of rare early variant among several setups used by Schickle on their output. It matches the setup on their early hollow version (also unmarked).

The more common setup is also hardware used by Schickle on their more commonly marked orders (wound badges and Spanish Crosses) (see attached). Schickle was not in the habit of marking his KM badges, presumably since his KM badges were mostly award pieces, not private purchase, and the LDO numbers existed only during the last 5 months of his business.

Zimmermann-marked badges are very rare and the needle-pin Schickle variants are also very rare, so it's statistically unlikely that Zimmermann could have acquired one of those to stamp it L/52. Presumably Zimmermann only acquired a handful of the cut-out swastika examples in Schickle's 1941 sell-off by the local Chamber of Commerce.

When another Pforzheim maker, B.H. Mayer, produced badges of his own for private purchase they were virtually all marked L/18 as seen in their all zinc lines, so why can we count the L/52 marked U-boats on one hand? I think it's because Zimmermann only acquired a few for re-sale in the private purchase market.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

And here's a Schickle-design Minesweeper which combines the rounded Schickle catch from the needle-pin setup U-boat with the traditional block-hinge setup of the more common Schickle-design U-Boat variant.

[BubbaZ]

And here is my Schickle (or Schickle-design) tombak Minesweeper with the traditional block-hinge setup same as on the more common Schickle (or Schickle-design) U-Boat variant (as Jim's). Note even the same 'flaw' of the swaz as on Norm's badge.
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

Side views of reverse hardware of my badge.
Cheers,
Hubert

[John R.]

Another good thread.

John

[Martin W]

So,are we now presuming that the examples of this Schickle type of U-Boat badge that have all four arms of the swastika segmented was just a variant by Schickle,the stock of which was picked up and in some cases marked by Zimmerman?

Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

So,are we now presuming that the examples of this Schickle type of U-Boat badge that have all four arms of the swastika segmented was just a variant by Schickle,the stock of which was picked up and in some cases marked by Zimmerman?

Regards,Martin.

Hi Martin,

That indeed is the best theory based upon ALL available evidence, including the Schickle leftover stock sales notice from July 1941 in Uniformen-Markt, the other producfts double marked by both Schickle and Zimmermann, the Schickle catalog images of U-Boat, Destroyer and Minesweeper, and the variety of hardware setups used matching other known Schickle products.

It's just like adding up a patient's signs and symptoms to come to the likely unifying diagnosis. To conclude instead that Zimmermann actually manufactured the L/52 stamped badges and the unmarked equivalents would be like making a diagnosis based upon a single symptom without consideration of the bigger picture -- it's a less probable theory.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Martin W]

Hi Norm,

well i certainly do not disagree with your theories about Schickle being the maker of these badges.

As always,you have placed before us some compeling evidence.

However,what interests me is that why do we only see the Zimmerman mark on the variants with all four arms of the swastika segmented?

We know that Schickle's stock was distributed to other Pfortzheim makers after their closure,so why do we not see the L/18 mark on this variant,i wonder?

I can only presume that Zimmerman picked up all of the stock of this variant or perhaps hand finished them.if that is a posibility?



Cheers,Martin.

[Trance_Eyes]

Hi Jim,

Can you please post a close up of the Cap Tally the sailor is wearing from the photo. It appears to be a named Tally but exactly Its not clear.

Thanks mate
JustinC

[Norm F]

...
We know that Schickle's stock was distributed to other Pfortzheim makers after their closure,so why do we not see the L/18 mark on this variant,i wonder?

I can only presume that Zimmermann picked up all of the stock of this variant or perhaps hand finished them.if that is a possibility?

Cheers,Martin.

Hi Martin,

It's a possibility that Zimmermann did the hand finishing, but I think it unlikely because if he did all the 4-arm cutouts on this very uncommon variant then it would be only for the private purchase market, and why then would he only stamp a small handful with his number? More likely he just liked this variant during the Schickle sell-off and scooped them up? We can't know for sure, but from the extreme scarcity of both L/18 and L/52 marked Schickle-design badges, I doubt there were a whole lot of these left for sale in the Schickle sell-off, and it's quite possible that most were already delivered to the KM for official award.

Although it may simply be an artifact of the drawing of the U-Boat badge in the Schickle catalog, it's an interesting coincidence that all four arms of the swastika are cut out. (Although granted, the eagle's foot is missing and there's an extra cutout under the bow of the submarine as well.)

Best regards,
---Norm