Hey there Frank and Phillipe,
any other thoughts on this badge???
any other thoughts on this badge???
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Hi,Originally posted by Terrence
OK, I'll bite. Two things come to mind immediately.
1) The original source (at least for me, ie when I first became aware of it) of the Schwerin marked AC badge was one of the two big German "W" dealers (can't remember which though). So I personally do not rule out the post-war applied maker mark theory in this particular case - at this stage in the dicsussion I actually favour it.
2) How do you explain the existence of the "textbook" "pidgeon-head" Schwerin U-boat badge in ZINC (implying later war manufacture)? There seem to be some inferences that Schwerin changed their U-boat badge dies in favour of a better design.
The hinge and catch are the only Schwerin-like things on this badge type to me, and this combination of hinge and catch to me indicates quite EARLY construction (using Schwerin badge construction as a guide, and a guide only). As hinges and catches are only components, it is always possible that Schwerin and any number of other makers may have been supplied by the same third party source.
The absence of hand-finishing on this type of badge has always bothered me, especially when associated with Schwerin, as in general Schwerin seem to have been fairly heavy-handed when hand-finishing their badges compared to other manufacturers.
These badges have been discussed in the past without conclusion. From memory, Gordon W has a U-boat vet acquired example with the same obverse design - I can't exactly remember if the reverse set-up or finish was the same though, however I do recall that there was some sort of difference. I'd like to hear his thoughts on this discussion.
Regards
Mike K
PS: for the record, I have one of these badges in my collection (unmarked) and I am still undecided as to authenticity (even with Gordon's badge, becuase I remember the differences), let alone who might have made it!
PPS: for Michel, who's badge is imaged at the top of the thread, where did this badge come from? - ?directly from a German vet or vet's family?Last edited by Mike Kenny; 07-28-2004, 08:16 PM.Regards
Mike
Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!
If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!Comment
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mmm, interesting thread. I have to lean towards Mike on this and think possible it is a later applied mark like the AC which was on the Winkler site.
Perhaps some close ups / examination of the maker mark might answer the question.
Would also like to see some photos of a zinc Schwerin u-boat badge, I vaguely remeber a thread about some of these which were originally thought to be Schwerin were subsequently denounced
Regards
Rob.Regards, Rob
Collecting Inerests Awards / Badges and KriegsmarineComment
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Hi Rob,
Here you go.
I always believed these were zinc unmarked Schwerins untill Gordon started doubting that and now I'm just not sure anymore, making Frank's upgrade theory plausible.
If an upgrade this could also explain the lack of quality finish Mike is refering to. They possibly would have been made after Schwerin stoped using firegilding.
But then again it could be the little man with the stamp. Probably close-ups of the mm on the badge Frank posted could help. But how do we get them?
KR
PhilippeComment
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I am not sure what you guys mean by "no finish"? Michel´s badge seems to sport a nicely worn fire gilding. Same goes for Gordon´s badge (not pictured in this thread).Cheers, Frank
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I saw one with a "G" for a maker mark...has anybody ever seen this mark? I have no pix, I think the piece sold for about 180, JohnComment
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I know what you mean about the finish. The gilding on the "unknown badge" is very brilliant on the one I picked up from Huss. However, it is different from the gilding on on my unmarked Schwerin which is really very bright and more yellow in color. The gilding on my zinc "unknown badge" is also very different. I wish I had a camera so I could post them side by side. On another note, Shea just sold his badge of this type for $945.00.
Best regards,
TComment
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Hi,Originally posted by Frank H
Frank, I was specifically talking about hand-finishing, not the fire-gilding which as you say looks nice on Michel's example (I've re-worded my post above to avoid confusion). Do you happen to know the background on Michel's badge? I must have missed it when it was posted first time round. The thing that has always bugged me about my example (aside from the lack of hand-finishing) is that I can not detect any fire-gilt finish (I know what I am looking for), even though the badge does not appear to show much (if any) wear.
For Terrence, from what I've seen of gilding / fire-gilding, the colour &/or intensity varies from maker to maker and also varies between examples of the same badge from the same maker. I think the gilding was "batch" related and varied from one gilding run to the next.
Regards
Mike KLast edited by Mike Kenny; 07-28-2004, 08:20 PM.Regards
Mike
Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!
If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!Comment
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Mike,
Yes, that makes sense. Thank you for the note. The differences I observed between my schwerin and the unknown are like the difference in color between 18k and 24k color. Both really sparkle in the sunlight. I mention the color/gilding of my zincer because it had me really fooled as a tombak badge for some time. Very nice finish job for a zinc badge. Although, my knowledge base was novice at best then. On my unknown badge, the top edge of the eagle's wing and swascika are nicely polished. Just thought I would note the observation should it help. If the "new Schwerin" theory is in part based on "highest quality" these badges definately made the grade IMO.
I hope this thread continues. I just love a good mystery.
Best regards,
TLast edited by Terrence; 07-29-2004, 01:47 PM.Comment
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Dear Mike,
No, I do not know the history of Michel´s badge. Maybe he will comment. Or Gordon, who has another one (with a different reverse setup though).Cheers, Frank
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Hello All,
No special special history for my badge, I bought it some years ago to Detlev.
Regards,
MichelOhne Seemacht, keine Weltmacht !
Collection : http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=522068
Always interested by Kriegsmarine headgear, uniform and U-Boot related items.Comment
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I'm with Mike on this one. Changing designs doesn't make sense when we already have known originals in zinc of the "accepted" Schwerin design. Why would a maker produce the standard "chicken head" in tombak, then in zinc and then go back to a "better" design in tombak and then produce that in zinc as well. Doesn't make sense and the timeline using certain metals doesn't make sense either IMO.
I would tend to agree in the opinion that this badge has had the maker mark applied after the fact, though I can't understand why use the Schwerin mark when it looks nothing like an original from that maker--though we have seen that happen in other badges as well and most of those have come to be known as fake. Schwerin U-boat badges have always been the most sought after and perhaps that explains the "why", but any collector doing their homework would clearly see the design differences.
This design badge is original IMO, and I believe Gordon feels the same way concerning this type design. Carsten recently sold one of these in tombak a few months back that was simply stunning (don't know who beat me to it!
), but the firegilding compared favorably to the firegilding on an early Schwerin and was IMO one of the most beautiful U-boat badges I have seen to date. I have one in zinc, pictured below, that came from the family of a U-359 sailor along with an early tombak Schwerin.
You'll notice the gold color is darker, almost an olive brown color in tone and the hinge and catch are different from the earlier tombak designs. Not sure how that compares to the other guys who have the zinc pieces, but again I can't see why Schwerin would make so many design changes throughout the war. Don't mind the minor zincpest on the swastika/eagle's claws.
Last comment: Though I won't say 100% either way on this dealer's badge, ---IMHO---, the badge is authentic, but the maker's mark is not original to the piece.
Tim
PS. Sorry, couldn't let it go; $945. for any unmarked U-boat badge, regardless of condition, is simply ludicrous! These badges are going for 1/2 that on other sites and even that is expensive enough!
Plain simple greed!
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I agree with Tim. Original badge, fake markings.
There is no doubt about the badges themselves. Somewhere I have a wartime book with an illustration of this exact badge in it ( interestingly the credit for the pic in the book is Dr Doehle). This type is far scarcer than the Schwerin type , and infintely more attractive.
The one previously considered as unmarked Zink Schwerin I am now 100% certain is not Schwerin. First glance very similar but when examined next to a Schwerin there are numerous small but definite different die characteristics to the Schwerin tooling.
Interesting that the one with the Schwerin mark has a different pin set up too. Mine is like Tims.Last edited by Gordon Williamson; 08-30-2008, 11:55 PM.Comment
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