Small Attack Craft Awards Valuation Survey

[germanpolice]

Ludwig so what you are saying is that a bullion one has never been seen before so it has to be fake? is this correct

[Norm F]

Ludwig so what you are saying is that a bullion one has never been seen before so it has to be fake? is this correct

At the risk of wading into a hotbed of unresolvable controversy, I'll just add a few thoughts.

A better wording would be "a bullion one with provenance or clear period photographs has never been seen before so nobody can say this is genuine."

When dealing with rare cloth items that are unreasonably expensive and reasonably easily reproduced, the burden lies on the side of proving an item genuine rather than proving it fake.

For cloth items this means excellent period photos from which detail can be gleaned or reasonably iron-clad provenance establishing a standard for what is an accepted original. Unfortunately reasonable looking materials and decent workmanship and quality just isn't enough for someone to spend $1200 on a "wartime original" without kissing their money goodbye forever.

For what it's worth, I agree it's very nicely made, but if it's really silver wire I'd be concerned. My understanding is pre-war cap tallies used high silver content gilt metal wire that tarnished easily due to the high silver content and this type of wire was not used later on. The bullion wire used on subsequent private purchase tallies and also on bullion wire breast and cap eagles retained its gold colour very nicely over the years. The Small Attack Craft Awards were late-war produced so it doesn't really make sense to use a high silver content wire, at least in official circles.

Now could it have been a privately commissioned piece ordered by a qualified recipient from one of the numerous wartime "Stickerei" companies to dress up his uniform? I suppose so, but we don't even know if regulations would allow this, especially since by late wartime the cloth war badges (Minesweeper, U-boat, Destroyer, etc.) were already forbidden.

For now (in my opinion) one can collect these interesting one-offs (if the price is reasonable) and hope that some day more evidence emerges to support a wartime provenance. But it's buyer beware.

Best regards,
---Norm

[germanpolice]

Norm well said, this is the reason I got it, because no one knows, and it could have a chance. On that note have there been any photographic evidence of any of these awards being issued?? Maybe I should send it to you for an inspection, it is a very nice thing.

[Norm F]

Norm well said, this is the reason I got it, because no one knows, and it could have a chance. On that note have there been any photographic evidence of any of these awards being issued?? Maybe I should send it to you for an inspection, it is a very nice thing.

Hi germanpolice,

No, don't send it to me! Your photos are adequate.

Ludwig is our resident expert on these awards and probably studies them more than anyone else on WAF, so that question about photographic evidence is an excellent one for him.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Ludwig]

Ludwig so what you are saying is that a bullion one has never been seen before so it has to be fake? is this correct

I have seen several bullion badges, including this type, but IMO they are all fake.

[Ludwig]

Hi germanpolice,

No, don't send it to me! Your photos are adequate.

Ludwig is our resident expert on these awards and probably studies them more than anyone else on WAF, so that question about photographic evidence is an excellent one for him.

Best regards,
---Norm

Oh, that´s very flattering, Norm! I don´t consider myself an expert on anything (there is still much to learn about everything), but it´s true, that I have spent A LOT of time on the KdK. And yes, I have seen photos of the Sawfish badge being worn on wartime photos.

[germanpolice]

OK, so do you have any photos at all of the wearing of these badges? Does anyone have any photos? one other thing I would like to know is, who has decided what is original, and how did they come to that decision. Can I presume that most of this information on these items was gleened from the Kleitmann books?? Thanks

[Ludwig]

I guess that if a Kriegsmarine veteran still has the badge he was awarded during the war, it can be called an original?

[John R.]

Can I presume that most of this information on these items was gleened from the Kleitmann books?? Thanks

Combination of sources. Dr. Neubecker who was the designer, J. Nimmergut, and some other references plus the research of Ludwig.

This is a difficult area and not many photos of the patch in wear have been revealed to the collecting community unfortunately.

These two, owners unknown to me, are in the latest publication by Dietrich Maerz.

John

[John R.]

You have good questions and I think a decent discussion going on right now. I see nothing wrong with what anybody has stated so far in this very tough area of collecting.

Here are the images from the book:

[John R.]

One other point to germanpolice and I am not making any judgement on the originality of the item since I do not know.

If you note, this is silver bullion thread, but the circle around the sawfish is very irregular. It is possible that the patch shrunk if an aging compound/liquid was applied to the bullion. Of course, it could just as easily been wet at some time and shrank. I think the circle was round at one stage.

It is also of a very rare grade, the third grade. I do not think you have said what this was sold for, but if it was original, it would be extremely valuable based on the prices dealer seem to demand for the machine-embroidered types.

On the other hand, the firm on Troltsch and Hanselmann, a confirmed maker of the patches, was also a gold and silver thread manufacturer according to the information on page 987 of the above book by Weber and Skora.

Bottom line, there is a lot we do not know about the patches since there were a number of manufacturers and the navy department involved with their production.

Much of what we do know has come from Ludwig, other collectors, and the research of Weber and Skora at this point. The collector sources for the chapter in the Weber and Skora book are not identified.

I do not know if Ludwig will be publishing a book on the subject or not, but if he is, it would be welcome. I think Ludwig said at one point a book would be produced to discuss not only these patches, but the history of the unit.

John

[John R.]

To be clear and for full disclosure, Dietrich, Norm and I edited this chapter in the Weber/Skora book, however, we did not change the information in that chapter concentrating on the correct translation from the original German to English and then standardization of the chapter to the other chapters in regards to format, grammar, readability, etc.

So that chapter is totally based on the research of Weber and Skora, and their sources, and nothing was added or deleted by the editors from what was provided by the authors except for ancillary information that concerned itself with the history of the unit.

John

[germanpolice]

Excellent, excellent, excellent, Thank you very much for the replies, great stuff. Is it known if any officers where in this little organisation? as I can imagine the bullion insignia on a dress uniform, but looking at the ones on the sailors uniform in the book the man that wore this level would have an arm full, sailers preference I presume wearing two grades instead of replacing with the newest grade?

Did not pay very much for it less than 100 euro, was a ebay win from Germany, I had hugh success with ebay on many occasions with lots of stuff dismissed or no bidders and come up good, like 3 KM company display boards with 6 hand embroidered anchor motifs to each board, as well as uniforms and caps.

I just liked the bullion construction of this one. the rope design has moved due to the stitching coming loose in these areas.

I think I will keep a good hold of it for a few years and see what photos turn up, as I collect photos as well, I sometimes find the rare and unusual in these, so you never know. Those photos in the book are great.

[John R.]

Many officers volunteered for this unit including the son of Captain Hans Langsdorff of Graf Spee fame.

Captain Langsdorff's son was Lieutenant Jochen Langsdorff and was reported missing in action 20 Dec 1944 and his body never recovered.

He was 20 years old.

[John R.]

sailers preference I presume wearing two grades instead of replacing with the newest grade?

I cannot answer your question directly in this case, however, sailors posed for portrait photos with many unauthorized (but earned) versions of the uniform.

What they wore on duty is another matter and most probably, they had to conform to the rules. Naturally, if you were a U-boat man or a member of the dangerous KDK, they might have let you wear whatever you wanted.

John