U boot badge opinions

[actionoke]

Please let me know what you think of this badge ,it appears to have a Z on the back of the pin.It was gold at one stage.

[actionoke]

more

[Norm F]

Hi actionoke,

It's an S&L zinc U-boat badge. I call this setup variant a Type 2.1 in the S&L U-boat timeline. Here's another example (not mine but used for demonstration).

That mark is intriguing. Could you please show good closeups of that mark and also of the same position on the other side of the pin?

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

I agree with Norm, worn S&L zincer

That mark is intriguing.

Looks like '4' doesn't it? Another proof in favour of S&L attribution?
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

...
Looks like '4' doesn't it? Another proof in favour of S&L attribution?
Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

Actually it looks rather like a reciprocal mark created by stamping a "4" into the obverse of the pin. These pin numbers were "squeezed" in with a pliar-like tool it seems. That's why I'm curious to see the other side of the pin. However, this "Z" is bigger and different from the reciprocal marks I've seen like this one from the KVK1 previously posted by jon (tinmantis) in 2003.

Best regards,
---Norm

[actionoke]

more close up

closer

[Norm F]

Eureka! That looks like a sideways "4" on the obverse of the main pin. Can you please show a better closeup of that area?
And as well, a direct view of the reverse of the badge with the pin down?
Although my imagination wants to see a "4", so far it's not in a style I recognize.

Best regards,
---Norm

[actionoke]

CLOSER STILL as requested...Are these rare or something?

[BubbaZ]

Hi actionoke,
S&L zinc U-boats are quite common but never found with '4' maker's mark for S&L.
Since these badges are very rarely found with other maker's marks hence attribution of these badges to S&L, which is very well motivated IMO, is sometimes questioned.

It is not the S&L style of '4' mark but it is still '4' IMO

Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi actionoke,

Like Hubert says, S&L generally didn't mark their war badges, and attribution is based upon extensive study of various Heer and KM badge lines based on their hardware, appearance in S&L envelopes, appearance on Lüdenscheid souvenir boards and sales cases and comparison with their marked wound badges, EK1s, KVK1s and '57 products. The U-Boat attribution was one of the last badge types to fall into place and was further delayed by a couple of examples with other maker's numbers stamped into the pin. This is discussed on various threads here and on GCA.

And also as Hubert says, this type of zinc U-boat is quite common (although this particular combination of pin and catch is less so), but no S&L marked version has ever appeared (same with S&L's Fleet, Hilfskreuzer, Blockade Breaker and Coastal Artillery badges).

Having said all that, I have to admit I can't see an unequivocal "4" mark here. Here's a blow-up of the "Z" mark on the reverse of the pin and then the front and back of the length. What I thought was a large "4" is possibly just illusion and anyway doesn't line up with the "Z" mark on the opposite side.

When you look at the badge in hand do you see anything that looks like a "4"?

Having said all that the only reason S&L's PK number "4" would appear at all is if they used a marked leftover pin from their PK orders for EK1s or KVK1s (as in the case of "4" marked Destroyer badges), since there's no evidence that war badges (unlike the higher Orders) required PK numbers.

Best regards,
---Norm