Very Early Schwerin HSF Badge is now mine...

[Van]

Hello,
Well I finally acquired this HSF Badge, it was discussed here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=557055
Here is another shot of it with the rest of my KM badges, enjoy..
Van

[Van]

By it self.

[Lubo]

Hi Van, for me this is an unknown maker (to call it Schwerin is IMO incorrect yet - still nothing more than a wishful speculation)!
Congratulations on a rare badge!

[Norm F]

Very cool, Van! So far, one of a kind -- perfect for a KM specialist's collection.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Van, for me this is an unknown maker (to call it Schwerin is IMO incorrect yet - still nothing more than a wishful speculation)!
Congratulations on a rare badge!

I agree it can not be definitively stated as being Schwerin but many indicators point to it, so imo brushing off those observations as "wishful speculation" indicates to me you looked at the images with your eyes wide shut.

Van, a great addition to any collection, regardless of maker!

Regards
Mike

[Thomas Durante]

Nice addition Van. One of a kind for now...but where there is one there are certain to be more pop up in the future. A keeper for sure.

Tom

[Van]

Thanks guys,,, I really like the finish on it,
Van

[Norm F]

Nice addition Van. One of a kind for now...but where there is one there are certain to be more pop up in the future. A keeper for sure.

Tom

Hi Tom,

If (just speculating) this badge were a prototype sample produced by Schwerin for approval by the KM before proceeding with mass production, it's possible they can be counted on one hand and we won't see another. (Just a thought.)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Norm,

You might very well be right. IF its a prototype, we might not see another. Granted, its an interesting idea, but what evidence is there that this is a prototype or a "special version"?

Just as likely, couldn't this just be an unmarked Schwerin? I remember when the very first 1st Pattern Deumer LW Paratrooper badge popped up on the forum. It had a completely different eagle and wreath compared to the "typical" Deumer Paras and it was actually deemed a copy of the Assmann Paras. After a while though, another popped up and then it was eventually connected to Deumer based on close study of the reverse hardware, finish, etc.

Or could be an example by an unknown maker that shared sister dies with Schwerin? I personally doubt this due to all the similarities in hardware to Schwerin-marked badges, but its possible of course.

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,
...
Granted, its an interesting idea, but what evidence is there that this is a prototype or a "special version"?
...

Hi Tom,

No definitive evidence one way or the other (as discussed in the previous thread). It's just that there's no unmarked precedent in any of Schwerin's other tombak badge lines (the U-Boat doesn't count since the maker mark was stamped in after the fact rather than incorporated into the reverse die like in Schwerin's later practise), and among the subsequent badges only the zinc 2nd pattern E-boat came in both marked and unmarked versions and there are greater numbers of those unmarked badges despite what was probably a shorter run overall than the Fleet Badge?

But whether an unmarked Schwerin, a proto-type Schwerin or a collaborative effort between Schwerin and a neigbouring producer like Meybauer, that's as far as we can go with our speculation; at least we agree it's a cool and unique original. The only point I was making is we can't necessarily depend on the fact that we'll see more examples cropping up, and being one or "few-of-a-kind" doesn't detract from the overall impression of its authenticity.

Cheers.
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Norm,

Yes, I guess I just find it curious why you would say a proto-type rather than just an unmarked Schwerin or unmarked Schwerin-design. We have plenty of cases with unmarked IABs, GABs & PABs, etc. where they are an almost 100% match to known makers, but a small detail is changed (for instance the 5 or 6 different patterns of FLL IABs). We don't call these "prototypes", we call them unmarked FLLs because the hardware, finish, etc is all what we expect from FLL-production.

Maybe it is just a terminology thing, but when I hear the word proto-type, I think of the Balloon Observer Badge or the LW Seakampfabzeichen

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

Yes, I guess I just find it curious why you would say a proto-type rather than just an unmarked Schwerin or unmarked Schwerin-design. We have plenty of cases with unmarked IABs, GABs & PABs, etc. where they are an almost 100% match to known makers, but a small detail is changed (for instance the 5 or 6 different patterns of FLL IABs). We don't call these "prototypes", we call them unmarked FLLs because the hardware, finish, etc is all what we expect from FLL-production.

Maybe it is just a terminology thing, but when I hear the word proto-type, I think of the Balloon Observer Badge or the LW Seakampfabzeichen

Tom

Hi Tom,

I guess I'd summarize the reasons I postulated a "proto-type" as follows:

1) Extreme rarity
2) Did not use the standard stamping tool for the trimming outlines that was used in the mass produced examples.
3) The known method of Kriegsmarine procurement that was elucidated by Basti from original pre-war publications in "Schwert und Spaten" in 1938. Basti posted this information some time back on GCA showing that the Marineverwaltungsamt would provide an approved design to Schwerin and Juncker (those two companies were specifically named) who were charged with providing samples to the Marineverwaltungsamt for approval. Once approved the order would be issued back to Schwerin and Juncker for production for officer's pieces and to other companies for production for enlisted men. Back at this time in 1938 this applied to various uniform insignia and accoutrements which I think accounts for the distinction between officers and enlisted men in the documents. It was extrapolated to be the assumed method of procurement for badges as well during the war (not higher military orders where the PK was involved) since there's no evidence that the PK or the LDO were involved in the KM's procurement of war badges for official award, but rather this was under the jurisdiction of the Marineverwaltungsamt.

So assuming Schwerin had to provide pre-production samples to the KM for approval before mass production, this particular badge seemed to fit the bill quite nicely given it's unusual features.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Van]

Hi guys,
Here is a comparison of the left side of the wreath on my marked schwerin HSF and the new HSF, IMO I think the wreath is a spot on match for the marked Schwerin... what think ye all...
Van
The silvery finish ship is the marked Schwerin HSF and the dark colored is of course the new HSF...
P.S. Sorry for the crude red and black markings... lol.

[Norm F]

Hi Van,

Nice comparison. Yes, that only confirms what we already felt and what Mike had pointed out before, that the obverse pricisely conforms with Schwerin's tooling. It's just the reverse die and the trimming that differ from the standard Schwerin.

I think by now no one doubts the Schwerin connection to this badge, it's just not known how they're connected -- an early sample submitted by Schwerin for approval, a rare issued Schwerin unmarked variant, or a joint venture between Schwerin and a neighbouring manufacturer...who knows?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Nordmark]

On the M C F was a thread about another one of these, so I am not really convinced this is a prototype...



Regards,



Daniel