Unmarked HSF Badge

[Nordmark]

This one looks perfectly fine. Imo a very rare original, I would love to add it to my collection.



Regards,


Daniel

[Norm F]

Meybauer's hardware is different of course, but what if Meybauer said to his neighbour Schwerin one day, "Hey Carl, how about running off a few unmarked Fleet badges for me to finish while I consider a short run?"

...
Having said that, imo they have definitely not used their standard reverse die with the maker mark somehow removed, nor did they use their standard trimming dies. Imo this example has probably been hand cut-out as there appear to be mainly file marks, and the odd thin cut marks, on the edges, especially file marks on the inner edges.

BTW, Paul Meybauer's firm hand trimmed their tombak KM badges...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Van]

Here are some pictures of the port holes, hope they help.
Van

[Van]

shot of the guns and bridge..

[Mike Kenny]

BTW, Paul Meybauer's firm hand trimmed their tombak KM badges...

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,

Yes, fair point playing devil's advocate and I thought of that, but I don't ever recall Meybauer using 100% Schwerin hardware, to include the flatwire catch. The reverse outer edge is also bevelled as per typical Schwerin hand finishing (the Meybauer Minesweeper above does not appear to have this bevelling, despite all the rest of the hand finishing!). The hardware was applied before the finish and to me the finish looks typically Schwerin as well. I don't see the logic in Schwerin handing Meybauer some struck but untrimmed planchets, Meybauer cutting them out by hand and then Schwerin applying the hardware and finish.

I won't (can't) write off Meybauer as the possible maker but at the moment the use of the obverse Schwerin die combined with their hardware and finish points more towards Schwerin than Meybauer (for me at least).

Van, the portholes are an exact match for Schwerin, with some ever better formed than the ones on my early marked Schwerin example.

Regards
Mike

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

Yes, fair point playing devil's advocate and I thought of that, but I don't ever recall Meybauer using 100% Schwerin hardware, to include the flatwire catch. The reverse outer edge is also bevelled as per typical Schwerin hand finishing (the Meybauer Minesweeper above does not appear to have this bevelling, despite all the rest of the hand finishing!). The hardware was applied before the finish and to me the finish looks typically Schwerin as well. I don't see the logic in Schwerin handing Meybauer some struck but untrimmed planchets, Meybauer cutting them out by hand and then Schwerin applying the hardware and finish.

I won't (can't) write off Meybauer as the possible maker but at the moment the use of the obverse Schwerin die combined with their hardware and finish points more towards Schwerin than Meybauer (for me at least).

Hi Mike,

I certainly agree - perhaps even an early sample sent to the KM for approval before mass production?

I realize this isn't analogous to this Fleet Badge situation but for interest, here's the late tombak Juncker Minesweeper with a "Schwerin-like" setup and atypical finish (not mine). Sharing of hardware at times was typical in Lüdenscheid but seems to have been less common in Berlin.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hi, after reading all these comments I fully agree that this HSF is 100% original piece. The portholes on my marked example are also worse formed than on Van's badge.

Norm, what made you think that the Juncker Minesweeper you've posted is late war? Flat wire catch or the finish? Might be that for this particular example the complete reverse hardware was outsourced, including the catch. I would call it late war, if it was standard Juncker setup with flat wire catch. This type of finish is also found combined with early reverse hardware - I enclose example from my collection.
Chers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Norm, what made you think that the Juncker Minesweeper you've posted is late war? Flat wire catch or the finish? Might be that for this particular example the complete reverse hardware was outsourced, including the catch. I would call it late war, if it was standard Juncker setup with flat wire catch. This type of finish is also found combined with early reverse hardware - I enclose example from my collection.
Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

I didn't say late war, but rather late tombak-era production since by definition the late war production would be in zinc, and that supposition was based on the flat wire catch not the finish (although possibly further supported by the less detailed eagle). I would presume yours is earlier than this one, but of course this is supposition. (Nice badge by the way! )

Best regards,
---Norm

[Van]

Thanks guys for all the help, The guy at the Estate sale is asking a little over $500.00 for the badge, what do you think?? Thanks.
Van

[BubbaZ]

Hi Van,
500 bucks is not an exceptional bargain but a fair price for the variants collector IMO, and I personally would like to have it for this money.

Hi Norm,
Thanks a lot for an explanation. I was not precise enough, I also meant late tombak badge

Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

Hi Mike,
Certainly the unmarked zinc 2nd pattern S-boats are well known, but I hadn't seen the unmarked Blockade Breaker (aside from the mini) and certainly not an unmarked Minesweeper (although there have been postings of Juncker Minesweepers variants with Schwerin-like reverse hardware).
---Norm

So except for a well known unmarked zinc 2nd pattern Schwerin S-boat (we have one (so far)), this unmarked tombak Schwerin HSF and ... one unmarked Schwerin tombak Destroyer if my eyes are not broken.

Or it is just unmarked tombak Juncker Destroyer?

Sorry for the bad pics but this is all I can found in my files.

Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

So except for a well known unmarked zinc 2nd pattern Schwerin S-boat (we have one (so far)), this unmarked tombak Schwerin HSF and ... one unmarked Schwerin tombak Destroyer if my eyes are not broken.

Or it is just unmarked tombak Juncker Destroyer?

Sorry for the bad pics but this is all I can found in my files.

Cheers,
Hubert

Well done Hubert! That is indeed another example of the Juncker attributed tom bak Destroyer and not an unmarked Schwerin -- in fact, only the third one we've seen on the forums so far (along with one zinc example). This one has the same catch as the other one posted on WAF here, combined with the inverted hinge block seen on the other example posted on GCA.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's the other Juncker-attributed tombak Destroyer posted previously on GCA. And here's a comparison of the hardware with a Juncker-attributed U-Boat badge.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Gents,
Second try to find genuine unmarked Schwerin Destroyer - first one tunred out to be Juncker
What do you think of this one? Do you agree that this time we are looking at honest unmarked Schwerin Destroyer badge? (first one ever seen) Actually, it is marked '3' on the pin...
Cheers,
Hubert

[BubbaZ]

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