Unmarked HSF Badge

[Van]

Hello,
I have been offered this HSF badge, it is unmarked, any help determining if it is good would be appreciated, thanks.
Van

[Van]

reverse..

[Van]

hinge..

[Lubo]

Hi Van, as for the originality, I like it big time!
No idea on the maker though, resembles Schwerin a lot, but not a 100% match, possible Juncker (not a Juncker catch, but similar saw marks to align the hinge), let's hear what the guys with the big books will add!

[Mike Swan]

I've just acquired the excellent Weber/Skora KM volumes and can't locate a badge exactly like this one. As Lubo opined, it does appear close to a Schwerin.

There seems to be an excessive amount of metal around the eagle's beak and the gun barrel cut-out on the viewer's left looks strange.

Mike

[BubbaZ]

Hi Guys,
I do not like it. It pretends Schwerin tombak HSF badge but is unmarked, base metal does not look like tombak, some obverse details and internal cutouts do not match. Never seen such badge before but for sure does not look like any of known originals.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

This badge is intriguing, mystifying and disturbing.

As everyone has said it's eerily Schwerin-like but differs in tiny details of the trimming margins. Also the planchet from the bottom edge seems thinner than usual. But the duplication of obverse details, hardware and finish is outstanding, forcing me (against my better judgement) to consider wild options like a prototype, uncirculated unmarked Schwerin prior to the mass production with the conventional reverse dies and trimming tooling.

I want to believe but the little devil on my other shoulder is whispering "museum quality reproduction". I'm not passing final judgement, and look forward to Mike Kenny's considered opinion.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Van]

This is getting very interesting, thanks for the input so far...
Van

[Norm F]

One other "wild thought". Paul Meybauer was a neighbour of Schwerin and never marked his badges. He made small quantities of Tombak U-Boat, Destroyer, Minesweeper and Auxiliary Cruiser badges. Only two examples of the Meybauer Auxiliary Cruiser badge have surfaced on the forums to date, and the Kriesgmarine instated the Fleet Badge only 6 days after the Auxiliary Cruiser Badge in 1941. Now look at the finish on my Meybauer Minesweeper which has that granular textured gilding and darkened reverse, similar to Schwerin but more granular in texture. Meybauer's hardware is different of course, but what if Meybauer said to his neighbour Schwerin one day, "Hey Carl, how about running off a few unmarked Fleet badges for me to finish while I consider a short run?"

Either that or reproduction artists "Dr. Moriarty & Sohn" are gleefully chuckling at this thread...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

If this one is a fake, then I think we are in trouble! I really like the look of the base metal, the reverse hardware, and the finish. Seems to be fire gilded on the obverse as well, I like this one alot.

Tom

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Van, that is a very interesting HSF badge! Great pics too, which leave little room for question in my mind and makes evaluation a LOT easier in a case like this. I have been looking it over carefully for a while, hence the slow reply.

For me, from what I can see, I believe this is probably an early Schwerin produced original based on the obverse details, the hardware and the finish. The "C" catch style points to early in my books, as do the quality of some of the obverse details/features - eg the searchlight. There are other unmarked Schwerins badges (unmarked Blockade Breaker, Minesweeper and E-boat badges I can recall seeing offhand) out there so there's probably no reason to expect unmarked HSFs were also produced.

Having said that, imo they have definitely not used their standard reverse die with the maker mark somehow removed, nor did they use their standard trimming dies. Imo this example has probably been hand cut-out as there appear to be mainly file marks, and the odd thin cut marks, on the edges, especially file marks on the inner edges.

The only obverse details that give me pause at this stage are the portholes. I'd like to see better pics of this region.

Re basemetal, I think the idiot scratch on the reverse shows tombak. The "silvery" patches on the eagle I think are silver plating under the fire-gilding.

Regards
Mike

[Van]

Are you referring to the "port holes" on the hull ?? I will get some close up pics tomorrow and post them asap... thanks for the replies all...
Van

[Norm F]

...
There are other unmarked Schwerins badges (unmarked Blockade Breaker, Minesweeper and E-boat badges I can recall seeing offhand) out there so there's probably no reason to expect unmarked HSFs were also produced.
...

Hi Mike,

Certainly the unmarked zinc 2nd pattern S-boats are well known, but I hadn't seen the unmarked Blockade Breaker (aside from the mini) and certainly not an unmarked Minesweeper (although there have been postings of Juncker Minesweepers variants with Schwerin-like reverse hardware).

Could you elaborate on what you've seen in that regard?

Other than that, I certainly agree this "possible prototype" unmarked Fleet badge looks mighty convincing.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Van]

In the mean time till I can take some pics tomorrow I have the weight of the badge, it is 33.1 grams. Unfortunately I dont have a digital caliper set, but if I read my manual caliper's right it measures just over 5cm top to bottom and a little over 3 1/2 cm across... if I read the measurements right I hope this helps.
I will also post the pic of the badge with the caliper too tomorrow...
Van

[Mike Kenny]

Van, yes I meant the portholes on the hull. For measuements, the badge would have to be callipered.

Norm, you are probably correct re the unmarked Schwerin Minesweepers and Blockade Breakers. I was not thinking of Juncker or Meybauer hardware examples. I found the examples I was thinking of (Minesweeper in zinc, BB a tombak dished-back example) with what appears to be classic Schwerin hardware however, re-looking at the obverse details, they do not match marked Schwerin examples.

Regards
Mike