U-Boat Badge - Original?

[RobertE]

I'm hoping this u-boat badge that came with these other items is original - any opnions are appreciated. regards, Robert

[Martin W]

Hi Robert,

it looks like a good unmarked zinc badge.It is the type that we beleive may have been produced by Steinhuaer & Luck but similar badges can be found that are marked "65" for Klein and Quenzer,but these are rare, and "100" for Wachtler & Lange.
The link to S&L as the possible maker has come from examples mounted on Salesmans boards from Ludenschied that have come to light lately.

So, it looks like you have an original zinc award that we refer to at this point, as the S&L,W&L type of badge.



Regards,Martin.

[BubbaZ]

I agree with Martin, original zinc U-boat, possible S&L.
Here is a thread with attribution of these badges to S&L, mentioned by Martin:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=S%26L+U-boat
Similiar badge was also discussed recently in this thread:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=532696
Cheers,
Hubert

[RobertE]

Martin and Hubert, thanks for taking the time to comment and for including the link. regards, Robert

[Norm F]

Hi Robert,

I agree with Martin and Hubert of course, but I think we can drop the K&Q from the description since the only example we've seen on the forums or in print has the wrong type of "65" mark, and K&Q isn't known to have made any KM badges.

For me, S&L is far and away the front runner. There are indeed a very few examples with W&L marked pins on them but there is also an S&L EK1 with a W&L pin on it, so the pin itself is not proof and likewise W&L is not otherwise known for KM badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

There are indeed a very few examples with W&L marked pins on them but there is also an S&L EK1 with a W&L pin on it, so the pin itself is not proof and likewise W&L is not otherwise known for KM badges.

Hi Norm,
There is also S&L tombak Minesweeper featuring marked '100' W&L pin, described in Gordon's book on page 116, but this is the only one known example and confirms rather than denies your statement above.
Possibly a result of post war S&L activities? Might be true for zincers but tombak minesweeper - this does not match.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,
There is also S&L tombak Minesweeper featuring marked '100' W&L pin, described in Gordon's book on page 116, but this is the only one known example and confirms rather than denies your statement above.
Possibly a result of post war S&L activities? Might be true for zincers but tombak minesweeper - this does not match.
Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

Yes, the single 100-marked S&L minesweeper example, just like the 100-marked S&L EK1, is a classic S&L product with a classic S&L catch, with only the hinge and pin being W&L. How this came about, wartime frugality or post-war leftovers, we may never know, but it certainly doesn't prove that W&L made S&Ls EK1s and Minesweepers since the attribution of S&L's EK1s and Minesweepers is irrefutable.

And it's that fact that makes the 2 examples of 100-marked S&L-type U-boat badges suspect, combined with the fact that there are no other KM badges attributable to W&L, and much circumstantial evidence linking the design to S&L who made a full range of KM badges.

But given the grain of uncertainty, it's okay to refer to them as the S&L/W&L-type.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Its also interesting to note that I have seen classic S&L Paratrooper badges, but that are found with an L/12 and L/56 marks on them. These spurious marks are on post-war S&L badges IMO, and therefore I think its possible that S&L was putting these spurious marks on them. However, it is also possible (and more likely) that dealers were adding these spurious marks to try and increase their value. Leroy has somewhat confirmed this with some contacts he knows; that dealers were responsible for adding some of these marks in the 1970s to increase the value of badges since collectors were always wanting "marked" examples at that time.

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi guys,

Its also interesting to note that I have seen classic S&L Paratrooper badges, but that are found with an L/12 and L/56 marks on them. These spurious marks are on post-war S&L badges IMO, and therefore I think its possible that S&L was putting these spurious marks on them. However, it is also possible (and more likely) that dealers were adding these spurious marks to try and increase their value. Leroy has somewhat confirmed this with some contacts he knows; that dealers were responsible for adding some of these marks in the 1970s to increase the value of badges since collectors were always wanting "marked" examples at that time.

Tom

Hi Tom,

The slight difference with the "100" mark is that it's not just the mark being stamped into the S&L badge. In all three cases - the S&L EK1, S&L Minesweeper and S&L-type zinc U-boat it's an actual W&L-type hinge and main pain complete with the proper "100" mark stamped into the underside of the pin. But the catch on the EK1 and Minesweeper is the original classic S&L catch (the catch on the U-boat is generic and used by S&L and others). So someone actually applied a W&L hinge block and pin to S&L products - for sure on the EK1 and MS.

The U-Boat is still debated in some circles because the attribution of this design to S&L wasn't as obvious initially without putting together all the circumstantial evidence (i.e. several reverse hardware variations typical of S&L, S&L sales case and two separate Lüdenscheid sample boards with these badges, and S&L known to have offered a U-boat badge in their catalog). The only evidence ever "linking" a U-boat or any KM badge to W&L was the two examples with a W&L pin on them (one of which was missing a catch) - no other circumstantial evidence exists and none of the other variant hardware combinations found on this badge were ever used by W&L.

Cheers.
---Norm