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**Norm F** · 07-31-2011, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by aa-mil View Post

Let me ask you a question, Whats your opinion on the Sasha book. Because according to it the badge weights 45 grams and it's an original. See page from the book in picture #9 above. The badge above is identical in construction and Sasha says its good.

But yet you say that it's much heavier than any known wartime.

Both of you cant be right. Either Sasha is wrong or you are.

See the previous thread where the similar badge was discussed with also mixed opinions.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=E-boat&page=3

Regards

Hi aa-mil,

It's not a question of one being wrong while another is right. It's about the evolution of understanding and research within the community of collectors. The printing of Gordon's and Sascha's books represent one moment in time within one sector of the community. But naturally, authors continue to evolve after their books go into print. Both these references were, and are, excellent additions to the literature, but there hasn't yet been a book on war badges without some errors, as the field and the collective understanding continue to evolve over time based on new research and discoveries.

Authors such as Gordon and Sascha make a monumental effort to produce their publications, following which they go on to receive feedback from other experienced collectors after their books come out, so that their own understanding grows as well as their readers'. It takes courage to come out with a first edition in any field, and no true scholar rests on his laurels and ignores the field afterwards. That's why there is such a thing as second editions, not mention third, fourth, fifth etc. in academic settings.

So, you are incorrect when you say "Sasha [sic] says it's good." Rather you should say, Sascha's first edition contained an error as any first edition will. After feedback and further reflection on the newer evidence, I believe that we'll find neither Gordon nor Sascha are keen on this badge.

Regards,
---Norm

**John R.** · 08-01-2011, 09:40 PM

Let me ask you a question, Whats your opinion on the Sasha book. Because according to it the badge weights 45 grams and it's an original. See page from the book in picture #9 above. The badge above is identical in construction and Sasha says its good.

But yet you say that it's much heavier than any known wartime.

Both of you cant be right. Either Sasha is wrong or you are.

As Norm said, books are a point in time, including Gerd and Sascha's. I have checked, and this badge has been eliminated from the second edition according to Dietrich Maerz, the publisher.

IMO this badge is cast reproduction based on the casting line and heavier than expected weight for a zinc S-boat first pattern badge.

This is not the word as you say, but my opinion, based on the excellent images posted above.

You also made a statement above that "We've discussed this variety of reproduction before in another thread". well not everybody in that
thread was quite agreeable to the fact that it was a reproduction as much as you are.

Correct, and in the final analysis, it is up to the collector to make a call on a badge from this period. If you study the threads of this subforum, all 100 plus pages of them, you will find a trend in the understanding of these KM badges. In the "beginning" of this forum, collectors were trying to unscramble and understand the marked badges and these unmarked badges lagged behind as collector agreement put the marked badges into some kind of order.

Then the more obvious period unmarked badges were studied, like the Schwerin unmarked U-boat badges for example.

Then some of marked badges were determined to have been produced by different makers than originally assumed and more unmarked badges were added to the period category.

Then more and more of the more difficult to classify unmarked badges were studied. So it has been a process.

This does not mean that collecting started with this forum and all that passed before meant nothing. It meant a lot since most of the fakes were identified not by new collectors on this forum but collectors like you and others who knew about the fakes when they came out during the 60s and 70s (recognizing that fakes or at least post war assembled badges started soon after the war)--and thankfully they knew who made them, who sold them, and who might have even put them in books to legitimize them. The "old time" collectors, of all ages today really, were essential to this process. When I say old time, I mean pre-internet forums--collectors that learned at shows, from friends, from veteran buys of the day, and the few books out there that tried to shed some light on the subject.

Am not picking on you or anybody for a matter of fact. But I believe in proof of statements. Opinions are OK but unfortunately they are what they are.
It seems from previous threads in this forums, information from books and proof of prior badges sold by reputable dealers are not good enough
for the people in this forum. But the word (IMO) seems to be the law here.

While I will agree with you that certain forums seem to lay down the law so to speak on what is good and what is bad, I hope this is not the case for this subforum on KM badges. Mike, Lorenzo and I try our best not to stop any discussion or the airing of any viewpoint nor can I think of a badge here in which that has happened. Certainly not this badge in any case since you, or anyone, may say whatever you wish about it.

This subforum has never needed much "post cleaning" by moderators nor can I think of many infractions given out here either by any of us. Yes, a couple, but that had to do with insults, not discussions, and like I said, only a couple as far as I know in all these years. I am only talking about the KM forum since it is far more cut and dry I guess than other aspects of this hobby.

When it comes to collecting the world is black and white. It's either good or it's bad. If you cant prove or disprove a badge then dont say it's bad.
After collecting for 47 years and hearing everything there is to say am getting quite concerned for the benefit of the new collectors as all of this
can only be confusing the heck out of them.

I disagree here also. There is a heck of a lot of grey and the greys seem to be eliminated from books as time goes on or they are identified as greys in these books and forum posts.

As far a new collectors go, I would say most of the badges identified by Gordon Williamson, Sascha and Gerd in their latest books and editions, and the ones viewed here as period are in fact, period badges. The collector can rest easy if he buys one of these I think, at least as compared to some of the more expensive and rare badges of the Heer and LW and other collecting areas where consensus is far more problematic.

If the collector skips a grey badge or a period badge that has been deemed a fake on this forum or a book, so what? There are many others to choose from. Most of us have grey badges in our collections and it would be nice if the community thought they were period, but this is not the case of course. Sometimes they later become period somehow or they are never accepted. Again, so what when compared the huge number of accepted period KM badges available.

See the previous thread where the similar badge was discussed with also mixed opinions.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=E-boat&page=3

ONE MORE NOTE ON EXPERTSHIP:

Am going to make one statement as to being an expert. It will be in the form of a story. I am a Vietnam veteran and I served with the Long range
Reconaissance Patrol Unit of the 3bn/173rd Airborne in Vietnam.
As a test I gave my friend the camo jacket that I wore in Vietnam with a LRRP patch (unauthorized we had it made in Vietnam) and he went around the show showing it to 5
experts in Vietnam memorabilia.
To his surprise 3 of the experts say the jacket was original but the patch was phony. Their explanation was that it looked like the patch was removed
several times.
Simple explanation whenever we went to the field the patch came off for security reasons. as soon as we were back it was sewn back on.

End of story. So now you know my stand on experts , myself included.

Regards

Thank you for your combat service in Vietnam.

If you have been back to Vietnam anytime over the last few years, you will see that faking is alive and well as lighters and all sorts of memorabilia is being pumped out. I think the collecting of Vietnam artifacts, whether patches, uniforms, berets, you name it, is far more difficult than KM badges for the very reason of the simplicity of the US items compared with the combat decorations of the KM in WWII. Or the fact that many unoffical unit patches from the long Vietnam War have so much variety in not only design, but in fabrication.

**Norm F** · 11-08-2013, 09:49 PM

Just adding to this thread, another example of this type of fake S-Boat. This one appeared on Carsten Baldes' site as the "Copy of the week", described as "pot metal, wreath galvanically gilded", width 45.05 mm, height 57.89 mm, weight 42.14 grams. Same setup and variable hand finishing of the margins.

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

iX0ckoM3153wq.jpeg (212.6 KB, 79 views)

**Norm F** · 01-19-2014, 09:18 AM

More examples here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=6246832

Best regards,
---Norm

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