Later Auxiliary Cruiser War Badge - Opinion

[wschmidt]

Hello People,
I taked this badge in the last month. What is the opinion???
Regards,
Schmidt

[wschmidt]

[mrg]

Hi Looks like a late war original to me, Im sure these have been discussed before. Sometimes the catch is reversed on these if I am not mistaken.Regards

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

To me, Schmidt's AC badge is another example on the continuum of production by the unknown flatback maker(s). It has the characteristic hand finishing of the margins.

Of course, there may be more than one maker in play but it seems to me that there is an evolution from the "earlier" dark-zinc silver-back badges with rectangular catch plates and backward facing catches, through the round catch plates, and on to the more usual rounded rectangular catch plates and typical striated reverses on faded gilded reverses. But still could be more than one maker in a group - possibly Pforzheim-based.

Here's an S-Boot likely by the same maker as the AC. It's impossible to say if these badges are late-war or post-war production but they seem to be old anyway. They're certainly not the greatest quality, and there shouldn't have been much demand for Auxiliary Cruiser awards late in the war, and no legitimate demand for a 1st-pattern S-Boat.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hi,
I agree, typical flatback. But which of them are wartime (if any) and which early postwar - impossible to tell at the moment.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Schmidt,

I can only agree with the others, an "original" flatback AC. The poor quality of these raises some questions whether they are wartime or postwar, but I like them all and think they could very well just be later war badges. Norm certainly brings up a valid point about not needing some of these Kriegs badges later in the war, but there is always the possibility of needing replacements for those that already received these badges earlier in the war.

Tom

[Jody]

KM Badges

there is always the possibility of needing replacements for those that already received these badges earlier in the war.

Tom

Hello,
I have no problem with the AC badge either, and I agree with Tom's comments about some of these badges needing replacing late in the war.

I used to know a man who served on destroyers and lost most of his stuff while fighting in Holland and Belgium in late 1944. The man told me he did not get back into Germany until late January 1944. It was at that time he got new awards to replace his old ones. It would have been interesting to see what the replacements looked like at this late stage of the war. He then lost those awards to the Canadians later on.

Regards,
Jody

[Norm F]

...
The poor quality of these raises some questions whether they are wartime or postwar, but I like them all and think they could very well just be later war badges.

Hi Tom,

...as could the early post-war production of S&L in Lüdenscheid and Souval in Vienna.

...
I used to know a man who served on destroyers and lost most of his stuff while fighting in Holland and Belgium in late 1944. The man told me he did not get back into Germany until late January 1944. It was at that time he got new awards to replace his old ones...

Hi Jody,

I take it you mean January 1945 since he lost his medals in late 1944?

He then lost those awards to the Canadians later on.

Regards,
Jody

Darn Canadians!

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Remember this LDO priceguide that was printed in November 1944. Even though it was obviously such a late period in the war when Germany really didn't have much of a navy left to speak of, all of the Navy badges are present on the list. This tells me that there was still a need and demand for replacement Kriegs badges, even this late into the war.

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi Tom,

Yep, makes sense, but it would have been slim pickings indeed if the best Auxiliary Cruiser one could buy was a zinc flatback! Much rather get a nice zinc F&B or Schwerin or even an S&L.

And the S-Boat badges by that point should be the 2nd pattern, not the the 1st pattern (although the controversial S&L S-Boat is also a 1st pattern). A nice 2nd pattern AS in triangle makes more sense in the late war period.

Cheers.
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

And the S-Boat badges by that point should be the 2nd pattern, not the the 1st pattern (although the controversial S&L S-Boat is also a 1st pattern).

Hi Norm,

I agree, and this I think is the strongest arguement against these flatback badges being wartime originals.

Just out of curiosity, was there a firm regulation that mandated all makers switch to the 2nd pattern E-boat badge design? And was the 1st pattern formally banned (at least on paper anyway)?

Thanks

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

I agree, and this I think is the strongest argument against these flatback badges being wartime originals.

Just out of curiosity, was there a firm regulation that mandated all makers switch to the 2nd pattern E-boat badge design? And was the 1st pattern formally banned (at least on paper anyway)?

Thanks

Tom

Hi Tom,

It's my understanding that the official announcement at the end of January, 1943 stated that all future production was to be the new form. But no exchange of new for old was sanctioned, and no actual banning of the 1st pattern as far as I know. Who knows what regulations were followed or not, but at any rate it was the was sailors themselves who didn't like the 1st pattern thus prompting the new design, so once there was a new design the demand for private purchase 1st pattern badges would have completely dried up one would think.

However, I can't see why the post-war souvenir market of Germany's occupiers should make any distinction between 1st and 2nd pattern...

---Norm

[Jody]

Hi Jody,

I take it you mean January 1945 since he lost his medals in late 1944?



Darn Canadians!

Hi Norm,
Yes, I meant January 1945.
Regards,
Jody