High Seas Fleet Badge - Vet Pickup - Help Identifying Maker

[Colorado]

I picked up this HSF directly from the Vet's son as part of this larger lot of German items last Monday. See thread link below:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=524956

I am not familiar with this particular pin and catch setup, can anyone help out on this one?

Thanks

[Colorado]

2

[Colorado]

Last.

Thanks again.

[Norm F]

Hi Jeff,

This is a Fleet Badge from the unknown flatback maker.

The badges of this maker are quite crude, and it's unknown if they're made during late war or for the post-war souvenir market in occupied Germany (or both). The obverse designs generally match that of the Pforzheim makers. There are some variations in hardware used by this maker, and they more usually have rounded rectangular catch plates like the one attached here for comparison.

A common feature of flatback KM badges is the variable finishing to the margins such that no two badges have precisely the same outlines.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Colorado]

Thanks Norm that is very good information.

Based my copies of this GI's US military documents regarding his duty status immediately after German occupation, I am very confident this badge was wartime produced.

[Colorado]

Hi Norm - Looking at your example, I see three distinct differences. Would be interesting to know if there is a trend. Much as Tom Durante found a pattern to wartime and and post-war S&L badges based on the tool mark on the pin. That said:

1. The zinc on mine is similar to wartime badges (the IAB and the Flak Badge for example that came in the Vet's lot) that have the "zinc pest" look about them, yours does not. It is smoother and shiny.

2. The catch on mine is round vs oval.

3. The cutout on the two gun tubes is much different.

Just stuff for you guys to chew on. Like I said, I know this family and I am sure this badge and the other medals in the lot all came back a couple months after the war ended and have been unmolested since.

Thanks again, Jeff

[Norm F]

Hi Jeff,

That's very interesting provenance putting your flatback at the end of the war. Is there a way of finding out exactly which cities that vet visited at the end of the war?

And you're quite correct about the variations. Sometimes round catch plates were used, and variations in the cutouts is typical due to the hand finishing/filing on these badges. A working theory (unproven) is that the flatbacks may have been been produced in late war, and then onward post-war in the same manner as S&L and Souval zincers. That could account for the apparent evolution in hardware, such as that seen in the Destroyer badges attached.

As mentioned, the obverse designs generally match the Pforzheim makers, and Pforzheim was bombed out in late war, potentially leading to quality and supply problems and scrounging for a living. Just conjecture at this point, but it fits with the observed phenomena.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Colorado]

Thanks Norm. Yes, he was with 398th Infantry, 100 Infantry Division and was back in the USA by December. They did cross by Pforzheim at the end.

Here is site that shows the locations of of the 398th.

http://www.marshallfoundation.org/39...ryRegiment.htm

[Colorado]

Harry C. just PM'd me with an astute observation regarding the PAB in my grouping. I had told him I suspected the GI had picked up at least some of the items from a store due to their unissued condition. We discussed how flat back PAB's were once not acceptable and now they are.

After he said that I noted my PAB, Heer Flak, IAB and HSF. Other than the PAB catch being oval, they all are verrrrrrrry similar yet, all are from unidentified makers. Hmmmm. Why would an Infantryman have an HSF? That one puzzled me too.

Very coincidental if you ask me. Could all these badges be from one Pforzheim maker?

Original thread again:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=524956

[Norm F]

Harry C. just PM'd me with an astute observation regarding the PAB in my grouping. I had told him I suspected the GI had picked up at least some of the items from a store due to their unissued condition. We discussed how flat back PAB's were once not acceptable and now they are.

After he said that I noted my PAB, Heer Flak, IAB and HSF. Other than the PAB catch being oval, they all are verrrrrrrry similar yet, all are from unidentified makers. Hmmmm. Why would an Infantryman have an HSF? That one puzzled me too.

Very coincidental if you ask me. Could all these badges be from one Pforzheim maker?

Original thread again:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=524956

Hi Jeff,

When I first saw your other thread, I too was struck by the similarity between all those war badges and wondered if they were all from the same maker or region.

I don't think it's as simple as the flatbacks once being unacceptable and now acceptable. Rather, I'd say they continue to be surrounded by questions and controversy with only heresay making them "good" or "bad" -- much like the controversy around the French Bacqueville badges on which there are many discussion threads. Like the Bacqueville badges, there's no proof of one of these flatbacks ever appearing in any German vet's award groupings.

To me, the theory of a late-war Pforzheim-area maker churning out badges to try to make ends meet in the late and post-war period fits the circumstantial and forensic evidence, but it still remains just a theory. It seems your find fits the theory quite well.

But I couldn't find anything in that website on the 398th regiment being in Pforzheim? I see on the internet that the 399th regiment which was also in the 100th division with the 398th was in Pforzheim -- was the 398th for sure there as well?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I think one of the last great mysteries in our hobby is WHO the "flatback" maker was. Whoever it was, they must have been a big player since they made all kinds of Heer & Kriegs badges, and they are pretty common ones at that. The "Broken Stem" IABs are pretty common and the reverse hardware and crude cutouts leave little doubt that they were made by the same maker as the other "flatback" makers. We also have flatback PABs & GABs, Kriegs Auxiliary Cruisers, Destroyers, HSF, Coastal Artillery, Minesweepers and even Blockade Breakers. So whoever it was, they were quite active and must have been a large supplier IMO.

Like Norm says, there is a good link to Pforzheim when you look at the Kriegs badges. But when you look at the Heer badges (Flak & PABs), there is also a possible connection to Vienna.

Jeff, if you can confirm that your vet did actually go through Pforzheim, that would be quite a connection to this town and the "flatback" badges. That would be an exciting new twist in determining the identity behind these badges.

Tom

p.s., Norm that is a great compilation of flatback pics you put together for the Destroyer badge, very helpful.

Tom

[Colorado]

Hi Norm - I will have to check. I know the 399th did occupation duty in Pforzheim, not sure about the 398th. The family has his Company memory book. I will have to peruse it next time I stop by. He is mentioned twice in the book. They also have the 100th's book as well.

That said, he was assigned to the right division for passing through Pforzheim to Stuttgart. These particular badges and him being the 100th can't be just a coincidence.

Hope some others might weigh in.

EDIT - Tom see you posted as I was writing. Thanks for your comments!

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

The 100th Division was in Stuttgart at from March 1945 till the end of the war (Pforzheim is just to the West a few miles):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100th_I...(United_States)

Very nice link to Pforzheim and the flatback!!

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi guys,
...
Very nice link to Pforzheim and the flatback!!

Tom

Hi Tom,

And the beauty of it (if the Pforzheim connection with this vet is verified) is it fits with the badge forensics.

(BTW, in the Kriegsmarine badge production the Vienna makers share the Pforzheim designs as well.)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Don D.]

Hi guys,

The 100th Division was in Stuttgart at from March 1945 till the end of the war (Pforzheim is just to the West a few miles):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100th_I...(United_States)

Very nice link to Pforzheim and the flatback!!

Tom

A very good circumstantial link imo. Even if his regiment was not in Pforzheim he was in the area and could have travelled thier. That or an enterprising member of the division could have gone there and grabbed a bunch of stuff to sell to the guys etc... Many possible scenarios come to mind.