Destroyer Badge Die

[leondes]

Hi,

A friend loaned me this die so I could take pictures of it. I thought many of you would enjoy seeing this.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0287.htm

Regards, Leon

[Norm F]

Hi,

A friend loaned me this die so I could take pictures of it. I thought many of you would enjoy seeing this.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0287.htm

Regards, Leon

Hi Leon,

Wow, thanks for posting!

That certainly raises questions. It seems to be an obverse die for the S.H.u.Co. Destroyer. The SHuCo tooling was said to have survived the war and to have been used to make post-war reproductions with vertical pin setups.

The big controversy is whether this was also used to make the so-called "round-S" variants.

Do you have any more information about where this die came from?

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Amazing Leon, thanks for the link.

John

[leondes]

Hi Norm,

He has been out of collecting for a lot of years and says he doesn't remember how he acquired it. Sorry.

Regards, Leon

[Mike Kenny]

Very interesting indeed. I think a post-war examples produced from these dies would not be too hard to pick based on the bad flawing (die damage) on the upper right of the wreath when looking at the die - assuming some badges were produced after the die damage took place of course! The grinding on the reverse may also give some clues to a badge produced from these dies.

Regards
Mike

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

You can see from this post of Denis' on GCA that this die is direct match to the round-S SHuCo badge. We have the smoking gun!

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hi Norm,
Are you saying that ALL "rounded S" Schuco Destroyers are repros?
Does it mean that Hero's badges (as enclosed) are simply fekes made of fakes? I think that there are visible Dekora die characteristics on Hero's badge...
I thought that only "rounded S" Schuco Destroyers featuring crooked flag pole (viewed from reverse) are bad.
Cheers,
hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,
Are you saying that ALL "rounded S" Schuco Destroyers are repros?
Does it mean that Hero's badges (as enclosed) are simply fekes made of fakes? I think that there are visible Dekora die characteristics on Hero's badge...
I thought that only "rounded S" Schuco Destroyers featuring crooked flag pole (viewed from reverse) are bad.
Cheers,
hubert

Hi Hubert,

Don't know yet. We have to look at good images of more "round-S" examples and see if there are any that don't match that die. I don't know if that Staegemeir is a copy of a copy or if it was made on that die.

BTW, just a matter of technicality, but if a badge is made from an original wartime die is it a "Repro" or is it better described as a post-war produced badge? I guess it depends upon who is actually making the badge? And on whether the reverse is also original?

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hi Norm,
According to SW, one of the features of known wartime produced round S Destroyers is a small die flaw on one of swastika arms as described in this thread: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...huco+destroyer
but Denis's badge also shows this flaw in addition to Dekora specyfic die flaws.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,
According to SW, one of the features of known wartime produced round S Destroyers is a small die flaw on one of swastika arms as described in this thread: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...huco+destroyer
but Denis's badge also shows this flaw in addition to Dekora specific die flaws.
Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

Yes, they should have much of the same die characteristics since the working assumption is that both angular-S and round-S versions are from the same obverse die, but this die is older, more worn and more flawed for the round-S badges.

The big question is when was the round-S introduced - late war or post-war? We now have pretty good evidence that the wartime die survived the war and was used in some capacity in the post-war period, but was this for all round-S versions or not?

We're left having to look at other anomalies, such as the poor detail and serious edge seam in Denis' round-S (image attached) that to me are suspicious for coming from the post-war die use. But what about "better" round-S versions, if they exist?

We need to look at the following:
a) classic "good" angular-S badges compared with the Dekora die to see what die flaws are missing in the earlier badges vs. present in the Dekora.

b) a range of round-S badges to see whether show a progression of die flaws vs. all having the same advanced set of die flaws.

That's a lot of work, but doable to sort this thing out. In the meantime, knowing the die has been around a long time and used post-war means you have to be suspicious and look at each example very closely.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Tim B.]

Great information Leon!

Nice reference material for the forum either way and nicely presented with good PIC's!

Many thanks for sharing/posting!
Tim