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**Gregorio Torres** · 05-05-2004, 04:41 AM

Please Bruce, Please Brian:
Obviously the owner wanted an badge with the normal issue, but in real silver. Of course this is an work made from the mould of an official badge (perhaps, as Bruce said, an HSF).
I had told with an jeweler and he explain me the why to make an item like this: First of all, you have to extract and mould from another piece, and when this mould is dry, you put the melted silver inside. Oviously you do it in the hollow form to save the expensive silver.

**Brian S** · 05-05-2004, 08:35 AM

Looks like a one off cast copy.

**Gregorio Torres** · 05-06-2004, 03:15 AM

Thank you Brian, but I tell you one more time this: it´s an original item made before 1945. There is no doubt for me, because the people which sold me is a very honest family (I cannot imagine to these persons making a fake and putting it among the originals items which belonged to their father), and I can see in their home in Oldenburg to the officer who held the badge in a big portrait from the wartime where you can see exactly this item (I have no doubt in this sense, cause the item in the portrait have the same defect in the right wing of the eagle).
I didn´t write any question about the authenticity of the badge, but about its price as an rare item.
Thank you for your interest.

**Philippe DB** · 05-06-2004, 03:30 AM

Hi Gregorio,

Since this is a unique item that could or could not be wartime produced IMO it's absolutely impossible to put a value on it.

For the average collector it's probably worth nothing because there is no way to proof this is original, apart from your story that is.

As for the KM specialists, and I think there are quite a few on this forum, I didn't read any comments from them so not really a good sign. If they thought this was an absolutely unique piece with provenance they would probably have contacted you by now and made you an offer.

So IMHO you will have a hard time finding a buyer for this piece even at a normal prize of let's say €350-400 for a nice buntmetall HSF.

Just my 2ct's

KR
Philippe

**Ludwig** · 05-06-2004, 04:03 AM

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I think we shall listen to what Gregorio says: his source is reliable.
We must also admit that we don´t know absolutely everything about what was produced or not produced in the III.Reich.
I think that that badge might be original. Of course not a standard piece, but I have seen "homemade" German Cross in Gold, Hilfskreuzer made in Japan, not to mention aboardmade ICs, KCs and Marinefrontspangen. All 100% wartime made pieces.
Once I got a VERY badly machine-made WSS-cufftitle directly from the original owner and I didn´t think it was original for a minute... UNTIL I also got a wartime photo showing the man wearing it!
We learn all the time!
But the value – in my eyes – is not very high, unless it can be connected to a certain person or ship.

**Bruce Simcox** · 05-06-2004, 04:16 AM

Hi Gregorio......

......First of all, I would like to take issue with the idea that this badge was made from a mold, taken of the front(obverse) of the badge and then the silver poured in thereby creating a hollow badge. That is the impression I received and will use that impression as the basis for the following response.

Now, why would I take issue with that?

Perhaps I would take issue with that because it would be impossible to take a casting of the front of a badge, pour in the silver hence resulting in the backside(reverse) of the poured badge having so much detail, accompanied by those interior raised ridges.

The manufacturing method employed to create the badge displayed here possesses the charachteristics of a badge created with a obverse and reverse mold, or die......I don't see how it could have been made any other way. I seriously question that a jeweler would have the facilities at hand to accomplish such a procedure. Or do they? If they do then my reasoning won't hold any water.

There is perhaps another explanation. It may be possible that this badge became a one-off casting/stamping/restrike(suggested by Brian). This havig been done, during wartime, as a personal gesture/favor/honor to the recipient, by either one of the artisans, workers or even the manufacturer(company owner) himself. An explanation could be out there, but at this point seems to be unknown.

I sincerely hope that you can establish a line of provenance to reinforce your opinion that this specimen is indeed a piece that was manufactured before the end of hostilities and are able to ascertain it's value.

Secondly, I am not trying to question your integrity Senor Torres only the question of validity concerning this badge having been manufactured during the era of the Third Reich. Provence then becoming, by default, the watchword concerning an issue of this sort.

Thirdly, I will say that this is definitely an interesting looking badge that seems to have the correct period hardware(pin/hinge/catch) attached.

Lastly, as I said before, it's possible too that this is just a very nicely made fishing weight masquerading as a genuine HSF badge having been manufactured somewhere for reasons, at this juncture, unknown.

-------------------------

Bruce

**Michel** · 05-06-2004, 05:02 AM

Hello All,
I have in my collection, an U-Boot KA attributed, made by a jeweller.
It come directly from the family, with some documents of him and his brother (it was in SS and Schutzpolizei).
All opinions are welcome.
Regards,
Michel

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UKA S W 1 2.jpg (19.5 KB, 117 views)

**Michel** · 05-06-2004, 05:04 AM

Back

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UKA S W 2 2.jpg (14.5 KB, 112 views)

**Michel** · 05-06-2004, 05:06 AM

3

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**Michel** · 05-06-2004, 05:09 AM

4

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UKA S W 4.jpg (22.1 KB, 114 views)

**Gregorio Torres** · 05-06-2004, 05:29 AM

Thank you very much Bruce, Phillipe, Ludwig and Michel.
Your oppinions are wellcome and very interesting for me, of course.
Michel, your Ubootbadge is really very nice. I hope somebody help us to put a correct price to our items.
Had anybody sold or bought one like these in the last months?

**Brian S** · 05-06-2004, 08:29 AM

If you're sure of it then a one of a kind for the vet as suggested to honor him. Impossible to value. If you had a photo of him wearig it that would be spectacular.

**Joey Charles** · 05-06-2004, 02:59 PM

What was made?

Hi Ludwig Good man,nobody is the complete expert on third reich insignia as new items turn up all the time,I once brought from a vet a flag with the swastika the wrong way around with short stubby arms which was an early 1920s made piece,if I tried to sell it now you know what response I would get.

.Regards Joey

Originally posted by Ludwig

I think we shall listen to what Gregorio says: his source is reliable.
We must also admit that we don´t know absolutely everything about what was produced or not produced in the III.Reich.
I think that that badge might be original. Of course not a standard piece, but I have seen "homemade" German Cross in Gold, Hilfskreuzer made in Japan, not to mention aboardmade ICs, KCs and Marinefrontspangen. All 100% wartime made pieces.
Once I got a VERY badly machine-made WSS-cufftitle directly from the original owner and I didn´t think it was original for a minute... UNTIL I also got a wartime photo showing the man wearing it!
We learn all the time!
But the value – in my eyes – is not very high, unless it can be connected to a certain person or ship.

**Hank C.** · 05-07-2004, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Gregorio Torres

.....There is no doubt for me, because the people which sold me is a very honest family (I cannot imagine to these persons making a fake and putting it among the originals items which belonged to their father), and I can see in their home in Oldenburg to the officer who held the badge in a big portrait from the wartime where you can see exactly this item (I have no doubt in this sense, cause the item in the portrait have the same defect in the right wing of the eagle).
I didn´t write any question about the authenticity of the badge, but about its price as an rare item.....

Well, heck, there it is right there. Get a pic of the portrait, post it here, and let's run with that.

Hank

**Hank C.** · 05-07-2004, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by hankmeister

Well, heck, there it is right there. Get a pic of the portrait, post it here, and let's run with that.

Hank

BTW, I think it's a nice looking badge, and look forward to whatever verdict arises.

I would lean towards it being original, but I'm super new!

Hank

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