Unmarked U Boat and KM Tally

[saladin]

Well my unmarked u boat badge and Kriegsmarine tally arrived today.

I would appreciate some expertise in identifying the maker of the badge. The colour looks a little harsh under artificial light but it is in very good condition with only a small patch were the acid fingers have been on the front and a dulled back.

The tally is full length and appears to be in just about mint condition.

Unconfirmed story items were brought back by British Navy chap at the end of WW2...no other details so no story at all really.

Many thanks Doug

[saladin]

And the Tally

[Lubo]

The uboot badge is by Zimmermann with an uncut swazi!

[John R.]

Well, the badge could be a Zimmerman but more likely a Mayer by collector consensus. Normally, a Zimmerman has all four legs cut out and the Mayer 3 so this badge could be either. Not common to see it without any cutouts.

The tally is a postwar reproduction though.

John

[John R.]

In regards to the tally, the little dots on the back at the top and bottom of the letters gives it away. Sold as a souvenir postwar.

[JustinG]

The Uboat is a good one, and at least the more expensive/rare item is genuine. Agree with John R. The tally is post war. Is there truly discoloration from the Uboat obverse from 9oclock to 12o'clock? What is that?
Regards,
JustinG

[Norm F]

Well, the badge could be a Zimmerman but more likely a Mayer by collector consensus. Normally, a Zimmerman has all four legs cut out and the Mayer 3 so this badge could be either. Not common to see it without any cutouts.

The tally is a postwar reproduction though.

John

Hi Doug,

Agree with John, but I'm wondering a bit about the base metal of the un-cut "Mayer" badge. May be just the lighting, but from the texture of the finish and the colour on the left wing (from the viewer's perspective) and mid-left wreath, as well as the reverse of the eagle's head and right wing, that looks like a zincer to me.

Although everything about the badge setup screams Tombak production, there are also zinc versions of the Tombak design before the more conventional marked zincers with the new eagle design appear.

Is it possible to get photos in bright daylight and closeups with the macro function?

Best regards,
---Norm

[saladin]

Thank you gents for all your input…bit disappointed about the tally but the badge is a lovely tombak one.



To answer a couple of questions:
JustinG,
The discolouration looks like where some acidic fingers have held the badge in the past and the gilding has worn away but the rest of it is in lovely condition.
The back of the badge displays the same handling marks but in a lesser degree. The area under the pin is mint but on either side there are the same handling marks.

Norm, the badge is definitely a tombak version and is really attractive in the hand the pictures under artificial light make the badge look a little pale.

I have attached the pictures that I previously posted prior to the badge arriving which show the badge more in it’s true colours

Another question I would like to ask..I appreciate what most people have said and hoisted in the opinions but is it possible that this was a badge that was awarded and put away and the original owner then purchased a replacement for wear hence the reason it is in such good condition?


Kind regards
Doug

[Norm F]

Norm, the badge is definitely a tombak version and is really attractive in the hand the pictures under artificial light make the badge look a little pale.

I have attached the pictures that I previously posted prior to the badge arriving which show the badge more in it’s true colours

Another question I would like to ask..I appreciate what most people have said and hoisted in the opinions but is it possible that this was a badge that was awarded and put away and the original owner then purchased a replacement for wear hence the reason it is in such good condition?

Kind regards
Doug

Hi Doug,

The pictures make a huge difference! Clearly a tombak badge like you say. Didn't make the connection that this was the same badge you posted before. (So we're back to seeing only one non-cutout version so far.)

To answer your other question, it's certainly possible the owner had two. With unmarked badges you can never know whether they were awarded pieces or LDO private purchase items, and they're most often both of equal quality and production. So you can't say whether this badge was actually awarded and never worn, or unissued, or private purchase leftover stock. If the story is true that it was brought over from Germany by a British vet after the war, then my guess would be it was more likely an unissued badge, consistent with its mint condition.

Best regards,
---Norm

[saladin]

Thanks Norm,

It is just as I was a serving member in the Armoured Corps and of course a medal and badge collector, so I appreciated that maintaining my medals in the best condition possible to keep the value at the highest level I just used to polish and wear medals that had been awarded to other individuals and mine stayed in their boxes.
It would seem logical to me that if I was awarded a badge it would be my treasured possession and I would just pop in to the local medallists and buy a cheap replacement for everyday use.

Am I correct in my assumption that not anyone could walk in to a shop and buy additional medals or badges, you actually had to have the award certificate to prove your entitlement?

All the best
Doug

[John R.]

Thanks Norm,

It is just as I was a serving member in the Armoured Corps and of course a medal and badge collector, so I appreciated that maintaining my medals in the best condition possible to keep the value at the highest level I just used to polish and wear medals that had been awarded to other individuals and mine stayed in their boxes.
It would seem logical to me that if I was awarded a badge it would be my treasured possession and I would just pop in to the local medallists and buy a cheap replacement for everyday use.

Am I correct in my assumption that not anyone could walk in to a shop and buy additional medals or badges, you actually had to have the award certificate to prove your entitlement?

All the best
Doug

Never heard of doing this in the US military. I never did. Naturally, I was not a collector of anything then.

First, we did not wear medals very often, therefore I did not know anybody that had two sets of medals--even Generals and Admirals. Ribbons, different and they were often replaced over your service time. Not medals though. Of note, many in the US military only wear 3 ribbons on their uniforms, their top ribbons, not all of them, although it was up to the serviceman and servicewoman.

So you might see depending on your age, an officer with three ribbons of the 15 he rated. I had a friend who wore (1) Medal of Honor (2) Silver Star (3) Purple Heart. I guess that said it all. Vietnam service.

For qualification badges same thing. I never bought a replacement badge and wore the same ones on work and dress uniforms, since once again, we rarely wore a dress uniform. I guess some people might have done so but it was not to preserve your issued badge but to save time swapping them around.

Of my 5 brass devices (to count dress large devices also), I only have one example of each and while I cannot speak for everyone, I do not think many had two sets.

Lastly along these lines, it depends on the service branch if you polish your medals at all. Some do, like Marines, some do not, like the Navy. All services polish their qualification devices (generall speaking depending on the base material and coating).

My point, do not assume anything since we do not know what an individual German sailor might have done with his badges. Maybe sent one home to Mother, one to the girlfriend, and only had one that he used. Who knows if the awarded badge went home or he wore it.

Lastly, the quality of the unmarked award is the same as the marked, so there is no lesser quality in the badge you have just received.

So there were no cheap everyday wear awards in the German badge system except for the lower price a zinc badge probably cost as opposed to the tombak. Remember that when issued, the zinc badge looked very nice.

John

[John R.]

Am I correct in my assumption that not anyone could walk in to a shop and buy additional medals or badges, you actually had to have the award certificate to prove your entitlement?

All the best
Doug

Correct. For tallies, not necessary though. Any serviceman could have bought them in a uniform store. That said, generally speaking the gold wire type was issue as the later cotton types which replaced gold wire in 1938. Cotton was used throughout the war since it was cheapest.

Cellon was private purchase.

John