Schwerin HSF Type?

[Brian S]

I couldn't pull up the article on the HSF so I was wondering which type this was? It's Tombak... Thank you.

[Brian S]

Here's the back with mm.

[Brian S]

Upper deck and eagle

[Mark S.]

Interesting double strike on the bridge windows..

[Brian S]

I was wondering about that. Makes you wonder how the original dies were set up when you see it just there.

[Brian S]

Tough for me to get a reply here anymore. Wonder why?

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Brian,

But Mike K was so kind to put up an intermediate solution to review his excellent article, which should help you to determine the type alone.

[Brian S]

Why yes, Frank, thank you very much.

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Brian,

I don´t know the different types by heart. I´d certainly tell you if I knew them by heart. For me it is enough to know if a Schwerin HSF is original or not by heart. If I can look it up in that article for you, you can just do it just as well yourself. That was my logic.

[Brian S]

Dear Brian,

I don´t know the different types by heart. I´d certainly tell you if I knew them by heart. For me it is enough to know if a Schwerin HSF is original or not by heart. If I can look it up in that article for you, you can just do it just as well yourself. That was my logic.

Frank, you have ALWAYS been there for me when I had a problem. I owe you more than I could ever say in print. I just can't tell the difference between a I or II that's all. Mike told me he thought maybe a II but I was wondering because the strike was so crisp if someone was as retentive as Phillippe on PAB's is on HSF's, if that makes sense. We have a few homegrown experts on just about everything.

[StevenD]

I have always thought that too many of these badges exist compared to what have would been made during the Third Reich era.

I know some of the fakes are exposed and that these fakes are well made but have certain giveaways, however I wonder if that some of the examples that we accept as real are indeed excellent copies?

It is just speculation on my part but it just seems that too many of these pieces are on the market.

Anybody else have any views on this?

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi Stephen. I have often pondered this same question..not only for the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City>Schwerin</st1:City> HSF…but for other badges as well. I don’t have a "hard" answer ( and I am too lazy to do serious research on a Sunday evening )....but here are my thoughts:

The HSF badge was instituted in April 1941, during the “tombak” period for badge construction. It was issued for serving “twelve weeks at sea” to crew members of battle ships and cruisers, or others connected with the High Seas Fleet.

Now…here is a “key point”: Altough instituted in April 1941, it was also awarded for actions prior to that date.

So, with that information, I can see how a plethora of badges may have been awarded almost immediately and thereafter. Serving twelve weeks at sea is a relatively easy requirement for anybody attached to a battleship or cruiser during wartime. I would guess that most seamen in that capacity might have qualified for the award. Add to that the “retroactive “ provision, and we can visualize a very large number of awards made around the time of its institution.

Since the predominant tombak badges we see are made by <st1:City>Schwerin</st1:City>, it is logical to assume that their tombak issues may have been the only type issued during that period, accounting for the large number we see today.

Here is another thought to consider. As the war progressed, many of the battleships and cruisers succumbed to battle. However, even though a ship was disabled, there were probably many survivors who went on to assignments to other ships, and these crewmembers may have already been issued their HSF awards.

So, as the war progressed into the "zinc" badge era, other makers came into play: FO, RS&S, et al. But with fewer ships and new crewmembers, these issues did not approach the number of Schwerin tombak badges that had already been issued.

Just some "Sunday evening" banter. Factual information welcomed!!.

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Brian, Frank hit the nail on the head - the important thing is that the badge is original. "Typing" was only introduced for the article - outside the article it is probably meaningless. For me, the easiest way to differentiate a Type-1 from a Type-2 is the way the deckline of the ship is impressed into the reverse of the badge (ie sharp reverse for Type-1, smooth reverse for Type-2 - refer to the red line in the attached image to see what I'm talking about). There are exceptions/refinements to this rule which are discussed.

Steven, interesting point. In addition to Lorenzo's thoughts, for a given war badge (be it HSF, Minesweeper, etc) the number of ships and the number of crew on those ships needs to be taken into account. For example, there was a fairly large and active Minesweeper fleet throughout the war. Even though the crew size per boat was not huge, the number of crew involved would have been significant, therefore Minesweeper Badges are fairly common and there are a lot of zincers (later war examples). For the HSF Badge, fewer ships were involved but the crews were much larger, so badge numbers would still be fairly high (don't forget about posthumous awards either, which goes part-way to explaining why a lot of tombak Schwerins can still be found in very good condition). E-boat and Aux Cruiser Badges are relatively uncommon because of either the smaller crews or smaller numbers of ships involved - which is why these badges are more expensive. Zinc Destroyer Badges aren't that common when compared to tombak examples imo, probably because the Narvik disaster was an early war event (ie, tombak dominant badge period).

Genuine HSF badge/maker types are fairly well known so repros are easier to pick. For me, the large numbers of unmarked (and therefore harder to determine authenticity) Auxilliary Cruiser Badges I'm seeing are much more of a concern.

Regards
Mike K

[Brian S]

I had similar thoughts about the numbers of badges out there. I agree with your thoughts on the many many awarded but also the relatively few originals that are in the hands of smart members who know the difference between fake/genuine. Every once in a while I tend to snap my neck in agreement when someone says "aren't there a lot of .... around?" But then I have to remember there really aren't that many of US compared to the universe of THEM collectors who own conservatively three times this number in fakes.

Mike, for me that's very subtle until I get a pair into my hands and can see the difference.

[StevenD]

HI Lorenzo, Mike and Brian:

You guys all make good points.

When I look at things the way Lorenzo explained them it does make me feel a bit more at ease with the number of badges out there.

Mike, I am looking forward to reading your article. I have heard good things about it.

Brian, I agree that the numbers of us that collect these items are fairly limited so maybe what to us may seem a large number of badges are actually a small infinate supply.

Steven