2 kriegsmarine badges for review. High Seas + E-boat

[Matthew G.]

thanks

Thanks for the help with the High Seas Badge guys. Hopefully someone can give us a definitive answer regarding the S-boat badge. Do you see anything in the badge as far as the front goes that may be a red flag?

[Martin W]

Hi Mike,


The zinc 1st pattern S-Boot is rather interesting. Very similar to (yet subtly and disctinctively different from) the controversial zinc S&L S-boats, and a reverse setup that seems slightly reminiscent of FLL. If legitimate, then I'd wonder about a Lüdenscheid-made badge.


Best regards,
---Norm

Norm,

the design of this badge is very similar to the badge that Gordon has illustrated on page 240 in his new book,a badge that is L/56 marked for Funcke and Bruninghaus in Ludenschied.

Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

Norm,

the design of this badge is very similar to the badge that Gordon has illustrated on page 240 in his new book,a badge that is L/56 marked for Funcke and Bruninghaus in Ludenschied.

Regards,Martin.

Hi Martin,

I know what you mean, there are definite similarities in style, but still different outlines in my opinion, not to mention the different hardware. So far, I've never seen another badge exactly like that F&Br in the book, have you?

At any rate, the similarities of all 3 of these badges (the one from this thread, the Funcke & Brüninghaus in Gordon's book, and the S&L-type) makes you wonder about a Lüdenscheid-design with shared tooling.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Martin W]

Norm,

i agree that the badges are not an exact match,just similar in design.The reverse hardware on the badge posted by Mike does look like the type seen on FLL awards,especially the hinge and pin set up.

I need to look at more FLL and other Ludenschied examples.

BTW,i have not seen another F&B award as illustrated in Gordon's book.

Regards,Martin.

[Martin W]

I just noticed that Sascha Weber has an exact same badge illustrated in his lastest book on page 558.

It is described as unknown maker award.

So,there are more than one of these examples around it seems.


Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

I have a concern now about the S-Boat badge posted by Mike.

Here's a photo previously posted by Gordon Williamson of a badge that was marketed openly as a Morigi reproduction.

When you compare with Mike's S-boat below, there are some differences in detail and in hand finishing but the features of the eagle's claws are the same, and the reverse hardware looks much the same.

Now I suppose it's possible the Morigi reproduction is based on an original like Mike's but that seems less likely given its rarity -- more likely to be a copy of an S&L.

I can't say definitively that Mike's is a reproduction, only that I now have concerns.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Matthew G.]

Martin thanks for the help could you provide more information from that book. i don't have it. Norm that badge I don't think that badge is even close to the one i posted the detail isn't there. Also notice the back of the badge on the left where mine dips way down compared to the one you posted.

[John R.]

Greenmike,

Please post a sharp image of the eagle on the S-boat badge. You need to use the macro function, flash off, natural lighting.

Right now it is blurry.

John

[Matthew G.]

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Unfortunately I don’t have any better pictures, and the badge isn’t in my possession at this time. This is the only other picture I have and it’s blurry as well. sorry

[Matthew G.]

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After looking at the pictures some more despite the fact the eagle pictures are blurry you can see the detail is there particularly in the beak whereas the repro one you can't see the beak. Also on the back besides the part on mine that dips down more, you can see the edges of the wreath much easier than the known repro. What do you guys think? I will see the badge again maybe tomorrow or the following day where I WILL take better pictures of the eagle.(just have to drive about an hour).. What do you guys think?

[Martin W]

Martin thanks for the help could you provide more information from that book. i don't have it. .

Hi Mike,

in his latest book "Die Kriegsabzeichen der Kriegsmarine",Sascha describes the badge as follows.

Maker,unknown.
Material,zinc.
Weight,45.00 g.
Height,57.20 mm.
Width,45.00 mm.

Needle,iron.

The book is in German and i beleive he describes the the hinge and pin as buntmetal or non-ferrous?

Regards,Martin.

[Matthew G.]

Thanks for that info Martin I'll be sure to verify it. I just looked that book up.wow! that's one hell of a book. The English version comes out this spring for about $200, 952 pages over 4000 pictures. Do we have any idea the year this one may have been made, becasue this is the first style?

[Norm F]

...Norm that badge I don't think that badge is even close to the one i posted the detail isn't there. Also notice the back of the badge on the left where mine dips way down compared to the one you posted.

Hi Mike,

I agree that there are considerable outline differences, especially in the deep cutout between the flag and the cabin as you mentioned, best viewed on the reverse. However, these are from differences in hand finishing after the badge is struck or cast, and the "Morigi badge" is considerably smoothed down. Where there is less filing on the left inner margin viewed from the reverse, you can see the same outline -- which differs from most other makers' S-Boats.

There's also a lot of similarity to the finish and texture of the reverse, and they both seem unusually thick.

Photos are indeed poor but nevertheless when you compare eagles you see the thin, splayed toes of the eagle's feet which is uniquely different from all other known makers of the 1st Pattern S-Boat badge, as well a slight splaying of the cleft in the swastika.

A final point of concern is the weight stated by Martin. 45 grams! That's massive, and substantially heavier than any known 1st pattern S-Boat -- indeed much heavier than any other KM zinc badge of any type. Interestingly, in the Minesweeper Badge arena there is a fake zinc variety that also is considerably heavier than genuine zinc badges - the so-called feathered eagle variety.

Your posted badge seems like a better, much more convincing execution of the "Morigi badge", and of a massive weight which is unprecedented amongst KM badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Mike Kenny]

I've watched this thread but have not commented until now when invited to - the blurry skewed pics make evaluation really difficult for an S-boot badge which is firmly in the "grey" area.

Up front - straight on, focused pics are required. It is extremely frustrating trying to compare minute details that are in focus over parts of 3 or 4 pics!

First up, re the HSF, a nice example but I'd want to see better pics of the pin and hinge to make sure they are not replacements (they certainly look well aged in relation to the condition of the badge though).

The S-boot: a hard one. I like the detail and the construction, the finish and the aging but typing it to a maker is very difficult.

The design of this example rules out most known makers, including the ?S&L design, based solely on the talons on this example! I agree that there are some similarities with F&BL - enough obverse differences to rule them out though, but the hardware is similar. A better (but probably still not exact) match in obverse details may actually be Moritz Hausch, however that in itself would open up a huge can of worms.

For now, this badge stays in the grey area for me. It's got a lot of things going for it but gut feeling is suggesting it's post-war.

Regards
Mike

[Matthew G.]

hmmm....

Alright guys, first off I appreciate all of the responses and thanks Mike for weighing in. Norm see where you’re coming from but like I said there are substantial differences between the badge I posted and the one you did including I just noticed that yours has additional streaks across the hull of the ship which you think they would have rubbed down as well. I plan on measuring and weighing it, but just because it weighs more (45 grams) than most badges doesn’t mean it’s fake. It is the first pattern after all=earlier made and better quality.

It would be nice if Martin could somehow maybe snap a picture of the page and put it on here so we can it. But one thing is for sure and that is I WILL go and take better pictures and post them tomorrow morning. My feelings are this badge seems too good to be fake and it had a good feel to it….