U-BOAT Badge with Diamonds

[Jon. H]

Asking price is 40k
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[John R.]

Here are the pages from Torpedo Los.

John

[John R.]

2

[John R.]

OK, here is Stan's badge.

John

[John R.]

Well, it does look like yours is in tombak not silver. I wonder why Gordon did not use color with these badges on the first page of this section of the book? It would have helped.

However, none of them seem to me to be standard issue tombak badges but instead an entirely different mold which used tombak or silver.

Like to hear other opinions on this issue. However, I am still not seeing an issue tombak badge on these pages.

It also looks like the tombak and silver badges are all stamped by Schwerin.

John

[John R.]

We have heard over and over that one version of the diamonds badge was a standard issue tombak badge with the diamonds swastika soldered over it.

There is no example of this in Torpedo Los and now it does not now seem that any of the issued badges with diamonds are period.

I will ask Gordon Williamson for clarification however.

In any case, thanks for posting your badge Stan.

John

[John R.]

Gordon Williamson's reply

Here is what Gordon just sent me:

"Hi John,

Just to clarify, when I refer in Torpedo Los to the early badges being "standard" I mean that they were in the regular design (as opposed to being redesigned to have an integral diamond studded swastika like for instance the Auxiliary Cruiser with Diamonds) and in the normal fire gilded Tombak, like the basic badge as opposed to more expensive real silver like the later examples.

I very much doubt though that they would have actually taken a standard badge from a storage bin and just attached a diamond swastika to it. I would expect that they would have had much more hand finishing to ensure a higher quality product.

Cheers

Gordon"

[Jon. H]

Once sold by Snyder.

BadgeUBoatDiamondsCasedR.jpg

BadgeUBoatDiamondsCasedF.jpg

[Norm F]

Once sold by Snyder.

Well, at least that's one example we can safely eliminate from consideration.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Well, I want to thank Stan for posting his badge. If he could also photograph the obverse it would be interesting to see since the image in Gordon's book is black and white.

I would also suspect that Stan's badge is an awarded piece, not sure if the recipient is known or not. It is possible that it could have been an extra piece from what I would assume to be an order from the Kriegsmarine to Schwerin Berlin.

Stan's badge is stated to be the second type by Gordon in the book so it is made of silver and gilded (thanks Jeff V. for pointing that out to me by PM) and we should not expect it to be silver in color.

I do not think the scratches on the back were made by the recipient though, who knows why they are there today. I think the recipient would have known it was silver and gilded.

It is not made of tombak since that would be the first type.

I learned a lot in this thread and it clarified a number of points. In the end, a very important thread and I will pin it to the top at some point.

The emedals badge is also period I believe with a repaired pin IMO.

John

[Jeff V]

Thanks to Jon-Olav and Stan for posting some originals. It is apparent that Stan truly is the man, one incredible badge after another in your collection! Thanks again for sharing.
I also think a huge thank you is in order to John and Gordon for bringing some clarification to this award. I have always been extremely doubtful of the jeweler converted Schwerin 1st pattern awards. With the first diamonds awards apparently given out by Donitz in 1942 (if someone knows the exact date I would love to know) the timeline never matched up with these first pattern pieces. The originals I have seen all shared the hardware nuances with the standard silver awarded pieces. Now Gordon has clarified what he wrote in Torpedo Los about the "first type consisted of the standard fire gilded U-boat badge with, over the small original swastika, a larger silver swastika affixed." That means the design is the same as the first pattern, however we can see the hardware, solder, and so on, is not. This is an extremely important bit of information because some 1st pattern badges have been converted over the post war years to diamonds awards. IMO these should be looked at with the greatest possible doubt.
best wishes,
jeff

[Stan]

U-Boat Badge with Diamonds

Here is the obverse together with the case it came in.

After I bought the badge from SW, I showed it to Helmut W and he told me he was standing in Andre Huesken's shop in the 1990's when Ali Cremer's (U-333) widow came into the shop to sell it. Huesken bought it and Weitze bought it from him and sold it to SW.

Now, this is only a story and Cremer was not a Oakleaves recipient but he was very close to Doenitz so people (GW) say it was attributed to Cremer and not awarded as there is no evidence other than this story.

Stan

[John R.]

If Andre Huesken confirmed that story, it would be pretty good provenance for such attribution I think.

John

[Martyn1]

Stan,

My understanding is that the S-boat badge was awarded once, maybe more though of course as indicated by Gordon Williamson in his latest book. The badge was in solid silver, never tombak, as evidenced by this one badge, according to Gordon.

So if somebody has an S-boat with Diamonds, it should be the one awarded to Toniges, which is highly doubtful, or to another recipient with good provenance unless I am missing something here.

As a collector, one should be very wary of an S-boat with Diamonds. I guess it is possible that period examples are out there, but besides the Toniges badge, I am not aware of one.

If somebody else has information on the S-boat with Diamonds, please post it here. Be interesting.

John

Regimentals sold the jeweller made S-boat with diamonds to Bernd-Georg Klug some years ago it was in the first form of the badge and made of solid silver at the time it had one diamond missing from the swastika I have the catalogue with it in somewhere but I seem to remember this was the dress copy that had been purchased from his widow or his son and that the diamonds were not real it was if I recall correctly £2000.00 and went to America I viewed it at the International Fair at the Motorcycle museum in Birmingham but sadly it was already sold but a genuine badge all the same and very nice.....He served post war in the German Navy and if memory serves me right he had his awarded second pattern badge converted in that the eagle and swastika were removed and diamond chips placed in the top of the wreath where the eagle had been

[John R.]

Yes, checking Gordon's latest book, War Badges of the Kriegsmarine, and a couple other sources, there were prototype (never issued) first pattern S-boat badges with diamonds and a number of second pattern badges with diamonds.

Thanks for the post.

John