1st Pattern S-boot by Moritz Hausch

[John R.]

Good questions Carlo and thanks for the better images of the Detlev badge. Yes, it is the exact same badge.

Hopefully we will get some discussion going here, but I think the pitting on the reverse, the split seam, the bubble/blob on the reverse are all possible reasons (due to lack of early war quality) that Detlev decided it was a fake.

Lets hear what others think.

John

[Mike Kenny]

Interesting.

What are the exact measurements and weight of the M-H example please.

Regards
Mike

[solo]

Interesting.

What are the exact measurements and weight of the M-H example please.

Regards
Mike

Hello Mike ,here they are:

weight 24,05 gr.
H 56,09
W 43,49
Cheers
Carlo

[Gary B]

Hi,

Has anyone crossed referenced this badge with the MH marked IABs? I ask since the MH IABs have been debated on the other sections of this forum but I do not see any of those individuals looking at this thread. I believe some of those guys might be helpful on the discussion of this badge. Off the top of my head I would recommend contacting Fuisher and Tom Durante.

Gary B

[John R.]

Hi,

Has anyone crossed referenced this badge with the MH marked IABs? I ask since the MH IABs have been debated on the other sections of this forum but I do not see any of those individuals looking at this thread. I believe some of those guys might be helpful on the discussion of this badge. Off the top of my head I would recommend contacting Fuisher and Tom Durante.

Gary B

I just sent both a PM, thanks Gary for the suggestion. I think you mean Fischer though.

John

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

John, thanks for directing me to this thread. The following are 2 threads that will interest you guys that are looking for information on these MH-marked badges:

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http://www.germancombatawards.com/th...hilight=mh+pab

Essentially, I have yet to find any MH mark on an original Heer, LW or Kriegsmarine badge. As you can see from the above threads, I have dissected the MH-marked PABs and MH-marked CCCs to reveal that they are nothing more than well-made reproductions. Based on what I see with the S-boat badge, I would also think we are looking at a well made reproductions.

The casting bubbles in the reverse are my biggest concern, not something we see on original die-struck pieces in my opinion. The hardware doesn't look to bad, but the closeups reveal its a bit sloppier that I would expect from an early badge. The finish and general appearance of the badge itself also doesn't seem right, but fully admit that I am not up to speed on these as many of you guys are.

Based on the track record of the other MH-marked fakes, I would be VERY skeptical of any other MH-marked badge that happens to pop up. Apparently Detlev had handled this S-boat badge and agreed based on him classifying it as a fake as well.

Tom

[Leroy]

Gordon's main concerns (in addition to the "blob" -which some are now suggesting was a drop of solder from the hinge attachment, then covered with finish) are that the badge posted here appears to be in tombak, not zinc, while the one he saw was in zinc with a flat back and better detailing. In essence, he thinks there should not be two different versions of the first pattern badge from this maker, one in tombak and one in zinc.

To further clarify, the badge posted here is the same one in Detlev's "copy archive", so we are not talking about multiples floating around of the same alleged "fake". Gordon has also confirmed that Detlev saw photos of the zinc badge Gordon believes is real and was convinced by those photos of its originality. Gordon has also advised that he only had permission from the owner of the zinc badge to publish it in his book, not on a forum, and so he has e-mailed him today asking for permission to post the images.

It would be nice to get to the truth about this mysterious maker.

P.S. Tom - One of the questions here will be: If this badge was cast, what was it cast from?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi,

Has anyone crossed referenced this badge with the MH marked IABs?

Hi Gary,

Thanks for reminding me about your IAB, here is the link:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=mh+iab

Another one that I think is fake. Again, its very well made (like all the MH fakes), but just a little off from original badges in materials and quality. And the tension foot mark is what confirms for me that its a reproduction.

Gentry, regarding the S-boat badge, the cavities suggest its cast in my opinion. It is just the way the badge is produced, but it doesn't necessarily have to be cast from anything. There are plenty of fakes out there that are completely new and unique designs. Fakers do both: they make new designs and they also make copies of original designs.

Tom

[Don D.]

Quite honestly, I'm with Tom on these. I've never seen a real MH marked badge but there are fakes marked like that out there.

On another note, the badge posted does not look to be tombak imo.

How did Detlev determine the originality of a badge based soley on pics? And a thanks to Leroy for boosting me from one to "some."

[Leroy]

How did Detlev determine the originality of a badge based soley on pics? And a thanks to Leroy for boosting me from one to "some."

Don - Your contributions have the weight of many!

[solo]

Hello Tom,thans for your help

In the thread of the IAB reported by you ,you are pointing to the no good made mark.


The one in the Sboot is very different and well made

The badge is in tombak,and if is a badge is very old ,becose was in the old collection for more 30 years.
All the best
Carlo

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Just a thought, but does Sascha show any MH-marked badges in his new book? If so, it might be interesting to post it up here.

Thanks

tom

[Leroy]

Just a thought, but does Sascha show any MH-marked badges in his new book? If so, it might be interesting to post it up here.

Tom - I don't know if he does or not. I do know that at the time Jody and I were preparing the article, he didn't know about them. Gordon was the person who reported them to me, and I have every confidence that he would not have done so without very good reason.

[Darrell]

How did Detlev determine the originality of a badge based soley on pics?

Exactly. Because Detlev says it's a copy, it's an open and shut case? Seems in the past he had a couple of flak badges listed as fake that were 100% ok. Also he has sold items as real that were fake.

Not sure why we stamp his COPIES as proof (always) that something is indeed bad.

[Leroy]

Exactly. Because Detlev says it's a copy, it's an open and shut case? Seems in the past he had a couple of flak badges listed as fake that were 100% ok. Also he has sold items as real that were fake.

Not sure why we stamp his COPIES as proof (always) that something is indeed bad.

I concur. We don't know yet if the badge which started this is good or bad (although there are certainly legitimate questions about it). Just because it is the "copy archive" is not conclusive to me at all, based on other things I have seen there (and in the "archive of originals").