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Deschler versus Deumer U-boat badges

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    #16
    So now, turning our attention to the controversial zinc U-boat with the Deschler-style hinge and pin.

    The first time I saw one of these I didn't like it. However, now seeing several examples another thought comes to mind.

    The Deschler-type pin is interesting but inconclusive so I would just file that observation away for now. Instead, focus on two things -- the catch and the outlines and finishing. These made me think of what we refer to as the "unknown flatback maker", so-called because of the line of combat badges that are generally non-vaulted, solid zinc badges, often with abrasive striations on the reverse. One can find IABs, GABs, Destroyers, 2nd pattern S-boats, ACs, Coastal Artilleries and Minesweepers that seem attributable to this maker. It's not known whether they are for sure wartime or post-war in origin but they look very convincing for wartime manufacture and the diversity of products is notable, and there it stands.

    Anyway, a characteristic of the KM badges of this unknown maker is that they used more hand finishing and filing of the outlines than any other maker, such that when you look at the reverses of the same badge type, no two badges look identical.

    Here you see a collage of 6 zinc minesweepers from this maker -- no 2 are alike in outlines. Then look back at the 3 examples posted by John of the U-boat and you'll see that likewise all three have differences in outlines on the reverse due to hand finishing. You can also see on the oblique view showing the internal cutouts of the U-boat, instead of the perpendicular shear marks you expect on a die-trimmed badge, you see oblique filing marks such as you often see on the flatback manufacturers products.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Norm F; 09-12-2010, 06:26 PM.

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      #17
      And now look at the catch on these badges. Although somewhat non-specific, the round wire catch on the rounded rectangular catch plate is typical of the flatback maker. The shaping is a good match and often they show the flattened area on top.

      So, I'm wondering if these peculiar, heavily hand-finished zinc U-boats with the Deschler-style pin are in fact completing the line of combat badges from the unknown flatback maker, and we just never noticed it before because this is the only product which uses a type of wide pin instead of the usual pointed needle-pin seen on other flatbacks.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Norm F; 09-12-2010, 06:23 PM.

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        #18
        Here are the reverses of four Hilfskreuzer flatbacks. Once again you see a variety of outlines (despite that they all have the same obverse design) just like the minesweepers.

        Of course, there are two main concerns to be raised with the "flatback" class of combat badges:

        1) Because of the inordinate amount of hand finishing resulting in a variety of outlines, this technique hides the trimming outlines that normally allow us to characterize and distinguish between different makers' tooling. Consequently it's possible more than one flatback maker is at play here, and their "fingerprints" have been wiped off, so to speak.

        2) Secondly, fakers who cast badges could be expected to file off the casting ridge resulting in a similar effect of filed edges with a variety of outlines, so it becomes hard to distinguish a flatback from a post-war casting. One has to resort to other clues like colour of basemetal and age of finish etc. which becomes difficult, especially since we're not trying to just tell wartime from "modern", but wartime from a range of post-war periods including the immediate post-war souvenir market, the '57-onward period, and later.

        So we're left wondering if this U-boat with the "Deschler-style" pin is by the sole "flatback" maker, or one of several "flatback" makers, or is in fact a post-war fantasy piece.

        Best regards,
        ---Norm
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Norm F; 09-12-2010, 09:41 PM.

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          #19
          This actually was a very good thread EK collector so I have deleted those parts of the thread that are not addressing the U-boat badge in question.

          I have also attached it permanently to the "Useful Threads" pin above so you did provide a valuable topic to discuss for the collecting community.

          John

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            #20
            Hi

            This is a very good thread.
            I have a Deumer in very good condition
            I post some pictures of my badge and i know that this thread is about Deschler but it is alwas good to compare badges


            Andy

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              #21
              Ooops forgott the pictures

              Andy
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                #22
                2
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                  #23
                  3
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                    #24
                    4
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                      #25
                      Last picture

                      Andy

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                        #26
                        Here it is


                        Andy
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                          #27
                          Wow, Andy that's a stunning Deumer. And with a rare variant "question-mark" catch, another typical Lüdenscheid setup.

                          Thanks for posting.

                          ---Norm

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                            #28
                            I,ll hope that it could help


                            Andy

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                              #29
                              Outstanding images Andy. Contributes a lot to the thread. John

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