HSF on E-stand

[Jeff V]

Hi guys,just did acetone test and absolutely nothing come out finish is strong and acetone is not doing anything to it at all.

What is the next step ?

I can send this badge to someone if this will helps,now i believe even more that this badge ok but always looking forward to more opinions.

That is a very good sign Eddie. Maybe it is an original finish.
best wishes,
jeff

[John R.]

No next step IMO Eddie. As far as I am concerned, it is an original zinc HSF badge made by Schwerin and the finish is probably original to the period.

John

[John R.]

Norm,

Please take a look at the photos by Van. It does seem that the process lacks that one extra step in the tombak production. In other words, the change in color to the finish on the reverse is due to a reaction with zinc and the one finish. Not a problem with the second finish not completely covering the first. My logic in this is the extent of the color change--no way they missed that much during the finishing stage.

Not sure though.

What is your take at this point?

John

[Eddie]

Big thanks to all who participated in this thread

Now i can sell this badge with confidence,but to be honest knowing that this is very rare case that all finish is preserved so well i don't really want to sell it just forced as i am on the middle of layaway.

very best wishes to everyone.

Eddie

[Norm F]

Norm,

Please take a look at the photos by Van. It does seem that the process lacks that one extra step in the tombak production. In other words, the change in color to the finish on the reverse is due to a reaction with zinc and the one finish. Not a problem with the second finish not completely covering the first. My logic in this is the extent of the color change--no way they missed that much during the finishing stage.

Not sure though.

What is your take at this point?

John

Hi John,

I'm not sure what to say at this point. If the thick acetone-resistant gilding is the original then it follows that the silvery-grey borders are something different from faded gilding. Mike Kenny's article shows 3 different zinc examples with variations to the finish and this one of Eddie's appears to be a fourth. Interestingly, Mike did describe the reverses of the zinc badges in his article as "silver plated and darkened" but they don't seem to show the missed areas one sees on tombak Schwerins.

I'll have to give this some more thought and look at some more examples. To be continued in the future...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Norm,

Please take a look at the photos by Van.
...
What is your take at this point?

John

Actually one thought comes to mind. Trying to reconcile Jeff's and Mike's description, for the zincers, perhaps Schwerin silvered the entire badge and then treated it to a uniform dark grey finish -- since it's the whole badge unlike the tombaks the badge would be dipped to darken it, not painted with the darkening solution, and so wouldn't leave the silver areas. Then the gilding would be applied afterwards.

Van's photos illustrate that as the dark grey surface becomes worn it becomes lighter, presumably because the darkening process doesn't penetrate the full thickness of the silvering completely. (This is certainly the case as the dark layer on tombak badges wears down.)

What if on Eddie's badge the gilding originally spilled over the edges in that pattern and then sometime after the gilding process, was removed from these areas with a process that removed a micro-layer of the underlying darkened layer, making it look grey? Thus the pattern would indeed be the shape of spill-over but with no actual gilding on it.

Just a thought.

---Norm

[John R.]

Schwerin had what I think was an intermediate zinc reverse finish and that is the one that has a very thick silver coating.

Then I think they started changing how they finished these zinc badges after that first attempt.

Not sure how they did it in the end. I do not think they would have removed gilt spillover though.

John

[Norm F]

I do not think they would have removed gilt spillover though.

John

It doesn't need to have been done in the factory, perhaps by others. All speculation of course, I'm just trying to get my brain around reconciling the coexistence of the original gold-coloured gilding with the grey borders on the reverse...

[Norm F]

It doesn't need to have been done in the factory, perhaps by others. All speculation of course, I'm just trying to get my brain around reconciling the coexistence of the original gold-coloured gilding with the grey borders on the reverse...

Okay forget all that! I spent some time looking for zinc Schwerin minesweepers and got another idea.

In the closeups in this thread you can see a heavily worn example which still has some golden-coloured gilding on the obverse but grey "spill-over" on the edges of the reverse just like Eddie's HSF.

Next posting will get to my point.

[Norm F]

And here's Philippe's minesweeper posted in a thread back in 2004.

Notice this minesweeper is very much like Eddie's HSF. Excellent gilding on the obverse but grey "spill-over" on the edges of the dark oxidized reverse.

Does this not look like Schwerin used a grey primer coating before applying the gilding? So those grey borders would be a genuine spill-over from the obverse, but not faded gilding.

[John R.]

So you are saying you believe with zinc badges they only put the primer on the front of the badge after they dipped it in a solution for the greying effect for the overall badge. They they gilded it?

John

[Norm F]

So you are saying you believe with zinc badges they only put the primer on the front of the badge after they dipped it in a solution for the greying effect for the overall badge. They then gilded it?

John

Hi John,

So it would seem, from the physical appearance:
1) dark grey "oxidized" undercoating
2) light grey "primer" on areas to be gilded
3) gilding to the wreath
4) silver frosting to water spout (for the minesweeper)

Of course, step 4 is omitted for the HSF. Also, step 2 is possibly only on some of their production, accounting for the variety of finishings observed by Mike Kenny in his article. Perhaps Schwerin's finishing technique evolved as they tried to get better adherence of the gilding after the switch to zinc.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

And on tombak badges?

[Norm F]

And on tombak badges?

For Schwerin tombak (Buntmetall) badges:

1. Application of a silver plate finish to the areas where the "oxidized silver" is to be applied, i.e. the reverse and the ship/waves on the HSF (the reverse and water spout/waves on MS).

2. Application of the darkening agent to the silver finish on the reverse and ship/waves on the HSF (the reverse and waves on the MS).

3. Application of fire gilding direct to the obverse tombak wreath.

4. Sometimes burnishing of highlights on the fire gilding,swastika and wreath highlights.

Cheers.
---Norm

[John R.]

The actual application of the gilding was done I think with a piece of cloth, not a brush.

Do you know?

John