HSF on E-stand

[rhudspith]

oops, need to check my glasses

[Eddie]

Hi guys,just found this thread today and would like to say couple words.

This badge cost me more than i listed, nearly $800 the reason for that is i purchased small group that seller did not want to separate and one item in the group was something that i really really wanted so i had to go for just to make sure the other item will stay with me.

I knew i am overpaying for it and i listed cheaper than i bought from the start.
I hold on to it for a wile since this is my favorite Kriegsmarine badge by design.

I dont collect Kriegsmarine and dont know fare prices for it, i am willing to take bigger loss on that and make somebody happy

Also would like to mention that finish is original and definitely in rare condition for zinc badge.

It is discounted twice already and next drop will $50 more down.

If somebody is interested in this badge and have something for trade i will be more than happy to do it.

here is my list of interest just in case

SS high ranking insignia, cuffs,skulls

Officer Grossdeutschland Cuff title

GAB's

1. RK tomback,
2. Forster and Barth 1.4.1,
3. F&R tomback.
4. 1.5.3, Hobacher ,
5. Orth massive 1.13.1,
6. S&L tomback,
7. Wurster tomback,
8. Unkknown maker #2
9. Unknown maker #5,
10 Unknown #7 cupal.
11. Assmann 1.1.1


kind regards,

Eddie

[Jeff V]

I have to agree with Rob H. on this one. IMO the badge has been regilded and that is why it looks so good. I will show what I mean. If we look closely at the reverse we can see clearly where the original gilding was and it has turned to a light gray color. I have illustrated this with some arrows. To me it is clear someone along the line repainted the obverse gold. Eddie if I were you I would return the badge to whomever you bought it from if you can.
best wishes,
jeff

[Eddie]

Thank you for your comment Jeff,well this is bad news for me than i purchased this badge almost two years ago and dont know where the seller is anymore.

I will take more pictures of the areas you pointed tomorrow to be sure.

kind regards,

Eddie

[John R.]

Let us also remember that these awards were produced using pretty poor quality metals or combination of different medals. (Check out Wikipedia and their description of Tombak/Tombac).

This is a little confusing and maybe your are talking about the zinc badges like the one being discussed. I agree a zinc badge is generally, but not always, a lower quality badge than a tombak badge. The AS S-boat comes to mind for a high quality zinc badge.

The tombak badges are of high quality for a warbadge. They were not made in gold or silver, but in the best material for that type of award at that time early war.

We discussed this in this thread recently:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=454572

John

[John R.]

Also a point to remember. The zinc badges will not normally show gold on the reverse which with tombak badges can be either the silver plating flaking off or spillover. You need to be careful what you are looking at with the gild on a tombak badge.

So what Jeff is pointing out is that when the badge was originally finished, there was spillover. Now, that spillover with zinc badges fades to grey and so should the front. Usually anyway.

With zinc, as soon as you see a high quality looking finish on the wreath, the red warning flag goes up and you need to examine it in detail.

Normally, Schwerin badges in zinc faded to grey as we have demonstrated many times.

Not always though, but usually. However, some makers have decent finish remaining on their zinc badges, Schwerin is just not one of them normally. AS did have good finish remaining as I pointed out above and so did others from time to time. Like FLL 43.

John

[Norm F]

I have to agree with Rob H. on this one. IMO the badge has been regilded and that is why it looks so good. I will show what I mean. If we look closely at the reverse we can see clearly where the original gilding was and it has turned to a light gray color. I have illustrated this with some arrows. To me it is clear someone along the line repainted the obverse gold. ...

...
So what Jeff is pointing out is that when the badge was originally finished, there was spillover. Now, that spillover with zinc badges fades to grey and so should the front. Usually anyway.

With zinc, as soon as you see a high quality looking finish on the wreath, the red warning flag goes up and you need to examine it in detail.

Normally, Schwerin badges in zinc faded to grey as we have demonstrated many times.
...
John

I wouldn't hasten to condemn the finish just yet. I agree with John that any high quality looking finish on a zinc wreath requires special scrutiny.

However the grey edges on the reverse is not gilding that has faded to grey on these Schwerins. Schwerin and several other KM badge manufacturers who made both tombak and zinc items would first silver the entire reverse and the central features on the obverse, and then paint a chemical treatment over this that darkened it on contact to create the "bluing" or "altsilber" effect. Wherever the chemical was not applied, typically at the edges and occasionally some streaks elsewhere, the colour remained silver-grey. The gilding of the wreath was the last step and could indeed spill over at times on to the reverse edges but is different from the silver-grey edges mentioned earlier.

I'm not saying that for sure this HSF hasn't been refinished, just that the co-existence of gilding spillover and grey edges on the reverse should not be the indicator.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

I agree with Norm that we can't condemn the finish on this badge at this point. Not to 100% at least from photos which is why I am waffling a bit above.

I think a test needs to be made. Not sure right now what the best way is to go about it though. Perhaps a small bit of acetone to see if any of the finish comes off.

However, this can also damage an original finish unfortunately.

Lets discuss at this point how the owner of this badge can determine if the finish is original to this badge or not.

I am not saying do anything to be clear. Lets discuss the pros and cons of a test first.

Maybe you can send it to Norm? Not too far from NY.

Well, lets talk about it and Jeff, if you have any ideas based on your experience with these tests, please let us know.

John

[John R.]

Eddie,

This is why Rob, Jeff, myself and others have doubts with this one. This is more like what we would expect with a Schwerin zinc finish for this badge.

John

[John R.]

And comparing the reverses, your badge is very similar to the other badge, but the obverse finish does not. Therefore the concern. Peersonally, I am also a little concerned with the gold spots on the revese. On the pin and on the catch. This might be a place to start with a test. I just do not see why the pin or the catch has gold showing through.

John

[Norm F]

...
Maybe you can send it to Norm? Not too far from NY.
...
John

I'm honoured by the vote of confidence, but I haven't made an in-hand study of Schwerin zinc finishes. I've only handled tombak minesweepers and studied photos for the rest of the theory.

A logical expert of course would be Mike Kenny as he's obviously handled a lot of these with variations of finish as shown in examples 5,6 and 7 in his reference article. There's one there that nicely shows the "fade to grey" phenomenon John mentioned and it's tricky to tell this apart from un-darkened silvering.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Too expensive to go from NY to Perth and back safely.

John

[John R.]

The fade to grey observation is most evident in the Schwerin zinc S-boat badge. Nearly every single one should have a grey obverse on the wreath.

John

[Norm F]

And comparing the reverses, your badge is very similar to the other badge, but the obverse finish does not. Therefore the concern. Personally, I am also a little concerned with the gold spots on the revese. On the pin and on the catch. This might be a place to start with a test. I just do not see why the pin or the catch has gold showing through.

John

Sure is a suspiciously nice obverse!

I'm not too concerned about the gold spots on the hardware since I believe the hardware is tombak and that's just raw basemetal showing through where the silvered finish has chipped off. But if that gold colour indeed comes off with acetone you have your answer.

Cheers.
---Norm

[Eddie]

Hi guys,thank you for such a nice and detective like discussion,just took couple of pictures of some areas and will take more if you point where you want to see it the most.

Pin and Catch appears to be tombak this is why you see it in some spots tombak color.

I dont have acetone at the moment but will do a test later this evening and will show you what happens.

kind regards,

Eddie