U-Boat Badge Input

[cdrinnon]

I have been trying to research the badge I have attached. Trying to determine if it is authentic and who is the maker. I have gathered some information but wanted to get your input. The badge appears to be unmarked. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks…Chad

[cdrinnon]

Picture of the back.

Picture of the back.

[Martin W]

Hi Chad,

a good original zinc badge. IMO based on the Vienna design and very similar to the badges produced by Frederich Orth and Rudolf Souval.

At this point i have no idea of the maker.

This type of reverse hardware and the diagonal striations on the reverse can be found on other unmarked KM awards.



Regards,Martin.

[Norm F]

Hi Chad,

I believe you have there a variant of the unmarked zinc B. H. Mayer in the later design. Martin will be kicking himself because he knows this too, as you can see in this link.

Could you show the catch from an end view? It likes like it's probably the stylized "P" metal catch seen on Pforzheim-made KM badges.

Two oddities, though, are the different outline of the ensign (flag) and the striations on the reverse surface...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Looking again at those two badges (Chad's and Jesse's from the other thread) there are some areas of remarkable similarity and yet also small differences, notably in the rudder and in the cutout under the flag, suggesting 2 different production dies from the same master punch. It could also perhaps be by Zimmermann, another member of the Pforzheimer Liefergemeinschaft along with Mayer?

Cheers.
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hi Chad,

While you're at it with the catch photo, could you please post a well-lit straight-on view of the eagle's head?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Martin W]

Hi Norm,

i did look at the zinc Mayer badge and i agree that there are similarities in design with the badge badge above but i am not 100% certain that this badge is a Mayer.

As you mentioned there are small differences in the badge posted above and the one in the link,namely the rudder and the cut out under the flag.

I also noticed that the leaftips above the bow and the stern have veins in this badge but they are not on the Mayer examples in the link or in Gordon's book.

The striations on the reverse of this badge and the rectangular folded sheet metal hinge do remind me of the "flatback" badges that were discusssed recently at GCA.

So possibly we have similar designs but different dies?

Regards,Martin.

[cdrinnon]

Requested Pictures

Attached are the requested pictures. The catch picture is a little fuzzy but hopefully it will provide the view you need.

Thanks Everyone…Chad

[Norm F]

Hi Chad,

Those pictures are very helpful. I'll now amend my opinion. Your badge appears to be an unmarked Förster & Barth with variant hardware. The eagle's head and the cutout around the flag are the key characteristics when you compare to the marked versions in this thread. The marked F&Bs carried the L/21 on the wide inverse-taper pins, so it's easy to see why your example is unmarked.

F&B were in the same working group with B.H. Mayer -- the Pforzheimer Liefergemeinschaft -- and both used that kind of catch at times. The obverse designs are the same but with a few differences and you can see the difference in Mayer's eagle head in the attachment -- the line of the beak extends much deeper.

I suspect that yours would have been a late war variant. Martin W. has a variant late war F&B Hilfskreuzer with the same hinge, pin and round catch plate but a different catch.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

i did look at the zinc Mayer badge and i agree that there are similarities in design with the badge badge above but i am not 100% certain that this badge is a Mayer.

As you mentioned there are small differences in the badge posted above and the one in the link,namely the rudder and the cut out under the flag.

I also noticed that the leaftips above the bow and the stern have veins in this badge but they are not on the Mayer examples in the link or in Gordon's book.

The striations on the reverse of this badge and the rectangular folded sheet metal hinge do remind me of the "flatback" badges that were discusssed recently at GCA.

So possibly we have similar designs but different dies?

Regards,Martin.

Sorry Martin, I didn't see your reply at first. Your instinct was absolutely right that it didn't quite match the Mayer , and we can now see the F&B characteristics.

It's very interesting that this variant hardware, aside from the "Pforzheim-P" catch, is very much like that on your variant F&B Hilfskreuzer.

(And the striations are indeed evocative of the "flatback" badges, which ties into that GCA discussion, although I still suspect there is more than one maker involved in that "flatback" mystery.)

Cheers.
---Norm

[Martin W]

It's very interesting that this variant hardware, aside from the "Pforzheim-P" catch, is very much like that on your variant F&B Hilfskreuzer.

(And the striations are indeed evocative of the "flatback" badges, which ties into that GCA discussion, although I still suspect there is more than one maker involved in that "flatback" mystery.)

Cheers.
---Norm

Hi Norm,

i agree that there is probably more than one maker of the "flatback" badges?

I also agree with your link to Pfortzheim and Foerster & Barth being the possible maker of this unmarked badge.

This could explain the similarities in design when compared with the zinc Mayer and as you mentioned both members of the Pfortzheimer group.

Regards,Martin.

[cdrinnon]

Thank You

I wanted to thank the both of you for your input and help. I am new as a collector and am learning more each day. Chad