U-Boot clasp in Silver, opinions please

[km-spain]

Hello all, I like it but you know much more that me in this subject.

Thanks in advance

[km-spain]

Bak side details.

[km-spain]

Last one.

[rhudspith]

Hi Eduardo,

Hope you are keeping well, unfortunately this one is no good, looks like a cast copy in my opinion, back of badge should be flat.

regs
Rob

[km-spain]

Rob thanks for your opinion about this one .

Piece is not flat as you say because is hand vaulted. It doesn't look a s a cast piece in my hands.

Any other opinion before a final decision.

[marine]

Hello!



Eduardo


I agree,the badge is hand Valuted.I hope Martin W have some opinion.


All the best
Moeten.

[Jody]

U-boat Clasp in Silver

Hello Eduardo,
I agree with Rob. I have issues with it too and it does look cast. Look at the eagles head, there is a big hole in it (I have never seen this feature on real 2nd pattern clasps).

Some of the detailing to the makers mark are not as crisp as they should be. Plus look at the detailing to the pin itself.

Regards,
Jody

Compare to this one in my collection:

[Jody]

U-boat clasp

Two more views (look at the shape and detail of my pin) and if you look carefully you can see the copper coat under the finish. You can see it on the bend of the pin arm and the place it makes contact on the badge.

[John R.]

Hi Eduardo,

IMO, a very well done micro cast fake. This is another warning about the U-boat frontspange in silver and bronze both first and second pattern. Unless you are 100% sure, do not buy this clasp.

The badge is of simple design and easy to fake. I almost hate to say why it is fake but we must of course to help other collectors. There might be a time where this badge is no longer collectible. It already is for 99.9% of the collectors out there.

First image, the front. I have circled the main problems. Your badge on top.

[John R.]

Reverse.

This is a way to check the pin. I have drawn a vertical line through both badges, your badge on top.

Not the bulge/greatest width of the pins are in different locations. This is a common problem with the fakes. The pin is not correct. The tip of the pin also does not look right, but mainly, the shape is wrong.

I agree it is hand vaulted. Not sure what difference that makes at all. Just another attempt to make this badge into an expensive original.

Again, if only Rob, Jody and myself out of all the people looking at this can see this, it is a badge to avoid for nearly all collectors without checking very carefully first.

The letters look like a typical cast job also.

Just our opinion on this Eduardo, but this one will not be getting a thumbs up here I think.

John

[Jody]

Hi Eduardo,

IMO, a very well done micro cast fake. This is another warning about the U-boat frontspange in silver and bronze both first and second pattern. Unless you are 100% sure, do not buy this clasp.

The badge is of simple design and easy to fake. I almost hate to say why it is fake but we must of course to help other collectors. There might be a time where this badge is no longer collectible. It already is for 99.9% of the collectors out there.

First image, the front. I have circled the main problems. Your badge on top.

Hi John,
Good point. These clasps are getting very scary and I am afraid that down the road so many will be afraid of them that those with good examples will not be able to sell them.

Regards,
Jody

[km-spain]

Thanks for your imputs, it will go back soon .

[John R.]

Hi John,
Good point. These clasps are getting very scary and I am afraid that down the road so many will be afraid of them that those with good examples will not be able to sell them.

Regards,
Jody

Yes, I see that day coming if not already here. Certainly, with proper vetting on this forum, a collector could be confident he has a period badge. However, what happens when you, Rob and a couple others are no longer around this forum? Others need to develop an eye for these badges if they wish to collect them. Or, as you said, even the period badges will not be sellable.

I want to note that in all the KM badges, this one has the best fakes since it is so easy a design to fake. Also like I said, the first pattern is now faked and it was not, to my knowledge, faked until a year or so ago.

Well, it is still not good enough. For the fakers, keep at it, it keeps the hobby interesting to a few of us anyway. However, I do not think the fakers care about 4-5 guys in the world that already have this badge in their collections and are still trying to help others.

In the case of the KM war badges vice clasps, I do not see a big problem since we do have enough members that can help identify the period badges. It is this one that is scaring people away, so maybe members just do not care anymore about it.

John

[Jody]

U-boat Clasp

Yes, I see that day coming if not already here. Certainly, with proper vetting on this forum, a collector could be confident he has a period badge. However, what happens when you, Rob and a couple others are no longer around this forum? Others need to develop an eye for these badges if they wish to collect them. Or, as you said, even the period badges will not be sellable.

I want to note that in all the KM badges, this one has the best fakes since it is so easy a design to fake. Also like I said, the first pattern is now faked and it was not, to my knowledge, faked until a year or so ago.

Well, it is still not good enough. For the fakers, keep at it, it keeps the hobby interesting to a few of us anyway. However, I do not think the fakers care about 4-5 guys in the world that already have this badge in their collections and are still trying to help others.

In the case of the KM war badges vice clasps, I do not see a big problem since we do have enough members that can help identify the period badges. It is this one that is scaring people away, so maybe members just do not care anymore about it.

John

Hi John,
This hobby is going to be real inrteresting in 25 years, providing folks are still buying this stuff (I will be 70).

I have always said we should buy up Frank & Reif U-boat badges (these will be real in 25 years).

Regards,
Jody

[rhudspith]

Rob thanks for your opinion about this one .

Piece is not flat as you say because is hand vaulted. It doesn't look a s a cast piece in my hands.

Any other opinion before a final decision.

Hi Eduardo,

I understand what you are saying and the confusion, both original and copy badges are curved in appearence. What I meant was that if you look at the reverse of the top of the wreath on the copy for example and imagine a cross section you will find that the due to the different speed of cooling of the cast the metal has shrunk more in the middle than the edges giving a slight dished appearance, that is the edges of the wreath are higher than the middle. if you compare to the original you will find that this is perfectly flat.

Jody, John,

I agree it will be ineresting to see where the hobby is in 25 years. We are passing the phase where most of the vets have passed away and not much direct vet stuff is available in quantities any more. Probably the next notable phase will be when the really big collections from old collectors which were started in the 60's become available. No one can aford to amass wide ranging collections like these anymore, collecting now is much more focused. It would be nice to see some of these go to auction but likely will be split between a dealer cartel.

On this badge I don't think this copy is of such a quality that should frighten people yet, it can be easily spotted with some basic knowlege and research. More difficult in my opinion is the new Schwerin u-boat fake by Staegemeir. Perhaps it is just the monetary value involved which puts people off