help with minesweeper stickpin

[Anapus...]

Hi!

what is your opinion about this stickpin? (fake or original)

http://img408.imageshack.us/i/cimg1635.jpg/
http://img408.imageshack.us/i/cimg1636.jpg/

p.s. sorry for my english!

[Norm F]

Hi Anapus...

I haven't seen one like it before, but here are my comments.

From the proportions relative to the pin I assume this is a 16 mm pin, although at first glance the trimming makes it seem like a 9 mm.

Oddly it seems to be made of tombak, both the mini and the pin, with no finish whatsoever.

It has an inset 'o' mark reminiscent of the 'o' seen in relief on some wartime and post-war badges.

Overall, my gut feeling is it is not a wartime original and is someone's attempt to make an "S&L-like" reproduction. Just my opinion, though.

Here's a link to a thread showing several other 16 mm mini-minesweepers:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=stickpin

It would be good if Peter J. could comment, too as he is quite the "mini-man"!

Best regards,
---Norm

[blutundehre]

I don't like how the plume is connected to the swaz, not for the larger sized minis anyway. JMO though.

[Peter J.]

Norm, I echo your assumptions about establishing the size, still I wonder if this might be 18-19mm. Anapus, can you please confirm the actual size

cheers
Peter

[Andy B.]

Wow, a mini that doesn't conform to known originals and it might be discounted because of this....we have come a long way baby (note-heavy sarcasm )

I too have not seen one like this. The badge looks more zinc to me (but I am no expert on metals). I noted that the knurling is very distinctive too, I have seen it before but can't remember where. I will endevour to search for it and the pin that used it. The wreath looks thick, but it could be the angle of the photograph.
I won't rule it out yet. I think it needs to be studied more.

Measurements would help a lot.

Very interesting pin.

Andy

[blutundehre]

Wow, a mini that doesn't conform to known originals and it might be discounted because of this....we have come a long way baby (note-heavy sarcasm )

I too have not seen one like this. The badge looks more zinc to me (but I am no expert on metals). I noted that the knurling is very distinctive too, I have seen it before but can't remember where. I will endevour to search for it and the pin that used it. The wreath looks thick, but it could be the angle of the photograph.
I won't rule it out yet. I think it needs to be studied more.

Measurements would help a lot.

Very interesting pin.

Andy

Andy,
Not saying your wrong, but in this hobby you have to be skeptical about everything especially if it doesn't conform to known originals.

[Anapus...]

Here's some measurements!

stickpin - 16x13 mm
wreath - 2 - 2.5 mm
eagle - 8x3 mm

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

Pulling out this old thread again because I was young and foolish back when I made my first observations (well...foolish anyway ).

I'm now more inclined to agree with Andy B.'s statement that this type of mini needs to be studied more.

I've acquired one of these as well, and it is indeed zinc with a faded finish similar to what we see in some late war zincers. On the first example last year, I had thought the circle at the top of the reverse was an S&L-like mark but it clearly isn't that at all. This example, like the other, has what appears to be a guide hole drilled into the top of the reverse which was ignored when the pin was instead attached to the center.

Interestingly, these minis have the same obverse design as the L/21 marked F&B minis of the same size, but different production values.

[Norm F]

Now, this is interesting.

First look at the close similarity in finish between the "early" L/21-marked zinc mini and its full-sized F&B Minesweeper badge counterpart (Jan Arne's example from another thread). On these private purchase zinc badges F&B used a very high quality finish which sometimes gives the false impression of a Tombak badge.

Then look at the close similarity in finish between the "late" zinc mini on the left and the later war zinc F&B minesweeper badge on the right. It appears the same formula was used on both, and the finish has faded in almost the identical manner on these examples.

One could make a good case for the unknown zinc minesweeper mini being a late war F&B, or at least a late war product of a member of the Pforzheim cooperative of makers.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

More observations. I applied colour correction with Photoshop to Anapus' picture here (left) which reveals that the finish on the back has faded in the same manner as on mine (right).

When you compare the two faded zinc minis you see that the upper hole in the reverse is a slightly different size and position. This indicates that it is drilled in after the stamping rather than part of the reverse die. Also, Anapus' example has less solder attaching the pin which allows us to see that the pins are also set into drilled holes which are somewhat larger than the upper holes.

Interestingly, a feature of zinc F&B KM badges is they'd often (although not always) drill holes and inset catches in solder rather than use catch plates for attachment. Other makers could do this as well, but it's another "F&B-compatible" practise.

[Norm F]

As mentioned the L/21 marked minis and these faded zinc minis share the same obverse. You can even see the same notch in the upper wave (marked with red arrows) suggesting either the same obverse die or closely related sister dies -- unless of course the faded zincers are cast copies of the L/21, but so far I don't see any other signs of a casting process?

[Norm F]

For more comparison, here's my other L/21 mini (somewhat lesser condition) with the same notch in the upper wave.

[Thomas Durante]

Well done Norm. I can only agree with all your assumptions and connections here, very logical and well thought out.

Amazing the level of detail we see on these minis, they are almost an identical match to the full size F&B badges.

Great job Norm, as always.

Tom