"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[Walter Sp]

I believe these badges have been made during the wartime...my friend got a U-boat directly from a vet and some of the other pieces I have seen can be traced to vets from years ago....but I also believe that they are reproducing these badges, including boxed examples....I have seen some that just do not look right...I also remember seeing a HSF version with an Assmann "A"...my theory was that it was either a total fake or the maker mark was added.

John

Hey John,

only one question. Does he has the badge from a german vet or from an american vet who bring it home as a souvenir ?

I've never seen or got a french made navy badge from a german vet, even if they spend the most time of the war at the french coasts.

So my next thought is the following. Everbody knows that the american and british soldiers are looking for souveniers especially combat awards. In Germany even the kids are looking for IC and other medals to deal with for cigarettes and chocolate (my father told me). Is it possible that a french firm started to produce this badges as souveniers for exactly these 'customers', just after the war ends in France ? Different looking in design to the 'real' german badges - no problem, because they don't care. They have what they want to show it at home.

This could mean that you have an period badge on one hand, but nothing official on the other.

greeting


Walle

[skip]

Your not really serious though are you Walle?

Which self respecting French firm is going to start making Nazi badges just after the hated enemy has been conquered and thrown out of the country?
Remember all those scenes of supposed FFL fighters looking for collaboraters and then stringing them up or shaving their hair off. I can hardly imagine any firm boss saying
"hey, great idea, lets make some Nazi badges for the newly arrived allies"

Skip

[WARLORD]

IT IS KNOWN WHO THE MAKERS OF THE BADGES WERE IN FRANCE. Their originality is not a question of doubt, why they were not used is another question. As to them being worn, I have an example that was taken from a POW Camp at Ely Cambridgeshire. This camp had many Volunteers from Saterlight countries.

[Walter Sp]

Your not really serious though are you Walle?

Which self respecting French firm is going to start making Nazi badges just after the hated enemy has been conquered and thrown out of the country?
Remember all those scenes of supposed FFL fighters looking for collaboraters and then stringing them up or shaving their hair off. I can hardly imagine any firm boss saying
"hey, great idea, lets make some Nazi badges for the newly arrived allies"

Skip

Hey Skip

It was just a thought and nothing more.

greetings

Walle

[John T]

I know of a French made U-boat that came direct from an American Vet, as well as a French made Coastal Artillery that came from a different American Vet.

[DaveNZ]

Lorenzo

Currently Mr. Weitze has several Bacqueville offerings on his web site.
Two of wich are described as being in buntmetal. You can look at them
at www.weitze.com and decide for yourself. Not being at all knowledgeable
about these, I'll refrain from making any judgements.

Regards
Ken

yes i see there are two Auxillery Cruiser badges there: so what is the opinion on them?

Is it normal for there to be slight design differences with detail etc with these french badges? the AC badges have a different eagle plus the globe has different detail.

[Pierre]

Bacqueville Kriegsmarine badges

Good thought, Chris

Somewhere in France, some Pierre guy, who knows the truth, is probably
laughing his ass off at us.

However, I'd like to side with Frank. Period made.
Some high minister of such and such probably got peed off that the
Frenchies were making these and banned the sale and wear.

Ken

Hello all,

my name is Pierre and I am from France. My grandfather was "capitaine de vaisseau" or "colonel" or "Kapitän zur See" for the germans in the french navy during WWII and was in Tunisia from 1939 to 1943. In 1943 he left Tunisia with all his family in a Junker 52 and landed in Italy when the AKrikakorps was defeated by the Allies. Having served during WWI in Verdun with Petain no way to betray him in joining De Gaulle like many of his collegues when it started to smell bad for the Vichy government. Let's say that he wasn't especially on the "good guys" side . Once arrived in France he worked in the Navy ministry in Paris rue Royale from september 1943 to the begining of 1946. It seems that there was a large quantity of these badges in the basement as each time my father was visiting his father he came back home with a good bunch of these badges. Not to collect but to trade them in 1945 for cigarettes with US GIs. No doubt that these badges after the heroes' arrival in the States have been taken directly on damned dead krauts .

Of course my father didn't take all the badges but these ones have been slowly stolen by people working in the Navy ministry (I know a french dealer who got a large quantity of them from the widow of a navy officer who was working as secretary in the ministry in the 60's-70's). By Bacqueville there was a couple of badges left but don't waste your time to fly to Paris to visit this shop which still exist in the Palais Royal. Somebody has already "cleaned" the area many many years ago.

I hope it will help

[John T]

My opinion is that they are absolutely real....I have gotten a number from vets...and there are absolutely fakes of them out there....

....my realization about the fakes came to me as a youth when I saw a french made HSF with an Assmann "A" stamping on the reverse...this of course may have been added to an original, but I have seen ones I have believed to be copies of originals in the years since.

John

[sturmann]

Salut,

Let's bring some wind back into this thread

It has been assumed that they were late war made & never awarded and that is the reason why they never appear on photos .

- If that is the case why is the S-Boot the 1st pattern and not the 2nd ?

- Why the minesweeper badge has not been produced despite the fact that it is the very one needed in the greatest number ?

yves

[Dimitri D]

Personaly, I am sure this french badges was made in the late of the war and it was stoked at the end of the war. For me, it's 100% original wartime late war but never award (never photos...).
I know one history on UBoot badges in south west of France (real history), a french jeweller based at Bordeaux had made some KM badges for german navy forces, but at the late war, and his stock never given to german soldiers.
It's possible the KM badges french made was use for trade with chocolate and cigarettes but these badges was come out of stocks.
Can possible the french societies have received the autorisation in late war for made KM badges?... But Normandy debarquement and no time to give stocks of these badges to germans...
And finaly, I don't see the interest to produce KM badges after war for the trades... See you the economical problems?
It's my personal opinions

[Andy B.]

I'm glad to see this thread come back to life as well. I decided to check Angolia's book (as I have it handy) for institution dates on KM badges.
Sub instituted in Oct. 1939
Destroyer instituted in Oct. 1940
Minesweeper instituted in Aug. 1940
Blockade instituted in April. 1941
Aux. Cruis. instituted in April, 1941
High Seas instituted in April. 1941
Eboat 1st instituted in May. 1941
" 2nd instituted in Jan. 1943
Coastal instituted in June 1941

Now, I noticed that all the badges were instituted in either '40 or '41, except for the Eboat 2nd pattern (to which there has not been a French type seen). So I was wondering what happened between 1941 and 1943 that would have stopped production of these types of badges.
Could it have been lack of materials that the firm would have needed? I don't know. I only have one French style, a 1st pattern Eboat, cause I can't afford a standard one. So my vote went for original, till I can get a German one .
Sincerely Andy B.

PS I guess the reason I did this check was to point out that I doubt these style of badges were late war made as there would have been a 2nd pattern e-boat.

[NOR_collector]

For all I know these might be real, but I don't think I will ever collect them.

/André

[Nordmark]

For all I know these might be real, but I don't think I will ever collect them.

/André

The same for me. Poor quality, nothing that was worn in that period, but this is just my opinion...

[WARLORD]

These pieces are very rare. The reason they were not worn is part of the importance. I am sure some were used. IF one day a picture shows in wear, then the scramble for them will be extreem. The quality of them is definitly not poor. I have been looking for the u-boat badge for 20 years and as yet not been able to find one.

[Terrence]

For me, I believe they are period made (although I wonder what happened to the dies?) and a part of tr history as regards their occupation and collaboration with Vichy France. One hypothesis as to their lack of use was the poor quality and zinc content relative to the period when all badges in tombak were readily available. Also remembering how quickly France deferred back to allied expectations with the taking of French forces in Africa, what german in their right mind would opt to wear a French design badge given the strong traditions of the kriegsmarine. Again, a very important reflection of the history of the times. If only these badges could speak.

Best regards,
Terrence